Governmental review of access to land in Wales

[blackholesun]

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/access-charter-for-wales
"The Welsh government is being careful to play down direct comparisons with Scotland, but in essence it is suggesting that they would consider creating a new law in Wales that could allow a right of access to all undeveloped land for informal recreation ... "

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=68502
The review is taking place in discussion with interested parties across local authorities, user groups such as the BMC, and land owning interests. Members of the public will be able to have a say on proposals emerging from this review when a green paper consultation is published in December 2013.

It seems like this could be an opportunity for an attempt to get access to caves on the same level as access to crags, hills and other 'undeveloped land'. I doubt that opportunities like this will occur frequently. 

 

[Ian Adams]

Are the CCC or the BCA acting on our behalf in this matter ?    Anyone know ?

Ian

 

[danthecavingman]

I believe the PDCMG are representing Welsh Caving Interests... 

 

[Ian Adams]

I assume that is a joke Dan ? 

Ian

 

[danthecavingman]

Ian,

I was jesting yes, sorry, couldn't help myself.

I hope that in this instance cavers will be properly represented if given a chance to express their views on the situation.

Dan.

 

[NigR]

Nice one, Dan......think you had Ian going for a little while there!

Rest assured that the interests of cavers will indeed be properly represented.

Stuart France is the person to contact (details on CSS website or via PM from me).

 

[Ian Adams]

Nice one, Dan......think you had Ian going for a little while there!

... You have no idea lol, couldn't sleep, fever, palpitations, dizziness not to mention the brain matter coming out of my ears  :chair: :chair: :chair:

Ian  :ras:

 

[Martin Laverty]

Certainly nothing about this on the agenda for their biennial (committee-electing, constitution-changing) meeting next weekend [ http://pdcmg.org.uk/minsmenu.htm ], but they will be consulting about Commercial caving...
Natural Resources Wales may also be in attendance...

 

[Ian Adams]

but they will be consulting about Commercial caving...

I assume that is another joke ?

Ian

 

[graham]

but they will be consulting about Commercial caving...

I assume that is another joke ?

Ian

If you followed the links, not a difficult process, you would know the answer.

 

[Ian Adams]

The "thread" is about access to land (caves) in Wales.

Martin's post "suggested" that the commercial discussion encompassed a consultation on commercial caving in Wales (not Ogof Draenen).

As I have already fallen for one wind up, I can't help but consider the possibility of a second ....

If you followed the thread, not a difficult process, you would have realised that 



Ian

 

[graham]

Ok, so Ogof Draenen is no longer in Wales. Glad we cleared that up. 

 

[Ian Adams]

Yes, me too although I suspect you may be mistaken about the location of Ogof Draenen, I thought it was in Wales.

It's such a confusing issue though, as it is so lengthy and it's passageways (both discovered and yet to be discovered) cover so much of the underground terrain it may even extend into England. That would be especially awkward in the access discussions viz a viz CRoW and the relaxation of the use of undeveloped land in Wales. I would think WAG might have some difficulty with that.

Personally, I have no issue with commercial cavers using Draenen. There again, it probably isn't any of my business, it probably isn't for me to get involved and it probably isn't for me to lobby one way or the other. The commercial caving in North Wales seems to go without any hitches or glitches to the indigenous caving populous - it just seemed odd that a South Wales club would be lauding jurisdiction over North Wales commercial interests and North Wales "holes".

Since it is now evident that it is only Draenen under scrutiny I think we can safely say the matter is cleared up 

Incidentally, since footfall had dropped in recent times inside Draenen I would imagine there is plenty of scope for commercial trips now - wouldn't you say ?



Ian

 

[graham]

Incidentally, since footfall had dropped in recent times inside Draenen I would imagine there is plenty of scope for commercial trips now - wouldn't you say ?



Ian

No, I wouldn't, cos footfall,  whilst important is not simplistic.

 

[Ian Adams]

Well, I am sure the PDCMG have a pretty good idea on footfall in Draenen and I am equally sure they will find a solution that is suitable for all parties 

 

[NigR]

.......it just seemed odd that a South Wales club would be lauding jurisdiction over North Wales commercial interests and North Wales "holes".

A perfectly understandable reaction, similar to that of cavers in South Wales towards English based clubs attempting to exert control over caving here.

 

[bograt]

Getting back to the original topic, it appears that the BMC (British Climbers) have got their act together on this, other folks affected from our point of view ( from the outdoor adventurers angle) are cavers, and canoeists, maybe there is a case for a concerted front to lobby, including BCA (British Cavers) and BCU (British Canoeists), if we all pull together I think we can overcome the shooting/fishing lobby, especially as our activities actually do something to improve physical fitness, rather than sitting on a riverbank ??

(Fitness of the nation is one of the things that came out of the olympics last year)

But there again, if the Welsh prefer to isolate themselves ????

 

[Ian Adams]

I agree with Bograt that British cavers should be pushing for more and better access .... I think (not entirely sure about this) that the Welsh Assembly Government are considering relaxing access beyond England's "regulations" and, that being so, the Welsh contingent should be pressing as hard as possible. Following that, there would be precedent for the English contingent to argue likewise.



Ian

 

[NigR]

But there again, if the Welsh prefer to isolate themselves ????

My take on this is similar to Ian's in so much as I think it is more a case of the Welsh government taking the initiative rather than seeking to isolate themselves.

Regarding the BCA, perhaps Bograt might like to recall that it was their decision to exclude Wales from their own review of access on CROW land and to limit it purely to England. So please don't complain if Wales decides to go it alone now!

As I said earlier, the man with his finger firmly on the pulse concerning this issue is most definitely Stuart France and I can confirm that he is indeed putting a lot of valuable time and effort into it. Once again, let me stress that he is eager to hear the views of other cavers, no matter what their opinion might be, so anyone with the slightest interest would be well advised to get in touch with him (contact details on CSS website or available directly from myself).

 

[TheBitterEnd]

if we all pull together I think we can overcome the shooting/fishing lobby

The huntin', shootin', fishin' lobby own the land and have strong representation in the house of Lords...

just sayin'