LarryFatcat
Active member
graham said:You use grapevine? Why not hemp or sisal like normal people?
like these guys
"we use it for everything"
http://forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4063&p=32633&hilit=+rescue#p32633
Bob Mehew
Well-known member
stu said:
Which is why at home I wear a boiler suit and safety spectacles or else take a shower after testing, since I always get splatted with the muddy water from used ropes!
I have it in mind to try a oil soaked rope but have not yet thought through the details. The problem is 2 fold:
a) how is one certain that the pre test conditions have maximised the opportunity for the oil to affect the rope and
b) how many times does one repeat the test to show that there is no effect?
From a chemistry view point, I some how doubt that mineral oil (ie organic based) would affect nylon, though I have not done any literature searches. (I find it encouraging that Stu says petrol has no effect on nylon although the organic constituents of petrol are different to those in mineral oil.) I would also note that my handy tin of 3 in 1 oil can has a plastic spout which still seems flexible as the day it was purchased some 20 or so years ago.
What I would suggest might be of concern is the potential for any oil in a rope to "bind in" the grit into that rope; a suggestion based on the observation of how difficult it is to wash my boiler suit with oily rust stains verses water based mud stains.
Perhaps we need Steve King to do a test similar to the one he did on the effect of fabric softeners on rope in 2005.
Bob Mehew
Well-known member
I have just had the following back from Steve
"In principle I could do analogous experiments, but I don?t see a need.
"There is a reference book called the Polymer Handbook (ed. Brandrup & Immergut, pulished by Wiley-Interscience) which, among other things, lists solvents and non-solvents for thousands of polymers based on years of experimental data.
"For Nylon-6/Nylon-6,6 it lists (amongst many ? what follows it a bit of a generalisation):
SOLVENTS: phenols/cresols, methyl alcohol (methanol), diols/glycols, and most importantly, acids (any);
NON-SOLVENTS: hydrocarbons, aliphatic alcohols (so ethyl alcohol/ethanol, and higher homologues), chloroform, ethers, esters & ketones
"So on this information; keep your ropes away from coal tar products, creosote, antifreeze, meths, battery acid, even ant killer! But mineral oils or beer (or petrol ? what was that chap doing?!!!) shouldn?t be a problem, per se, though I agree with your point about the trapping of grit. Also remember that they use oils to reduce friction in the factory when spinning the yarns, and some of this will transfer to the fibres. Presumably they wouldn?t if it was harmful!
"There has been some work in the States looking at the effect of automatic transmission fluid on nylon. Wikipedia describes ATF as a ?highly-refined mineral oil?. That study saw some effects but ascribed them more to physical side-effects rather than chemical degradation (so not unlike the effect of plain water on nylon)."
"In principle I could do analogous experiments, but I don?t see a need.
"There is a reference book called the Polymer Handbook (ed. Brandrup & Immergut, pulished by Wiley-Interscience) which, among other things, lists solvents and non-solvents for thousands of polymers based on years of experimental data.
"For Nylon-6/Nylon-6,6 it lists (amongst many ? what follows it a bit of a generalisation):
SOLVENTS: phenols/cresols, methyl alcohol (methanol), diols/glycols, and most importantly, acids (any);
NON-SOLVENTS: hydrocarbons, aliphatic alcohols (so ethyl alcohol/ethanol, and higher homologues), chloroform, ethers, esters & ketones
"So on this information; keep your ropes away from coal tar products, creosote, antifreeze, meths, battery acid, even ant killer! But mineral oils or beer (or petrol ? what was that chap doing?!!!) shouldn?t be a problem, per se, though I agree with your point about the trapping of grit. Also remember that they use oils to reduce friction in the factory when spinning the yarns, and some of this will transfer to the fibres. Presumably they wouldn?t if it was harmful!
"There has been some work in the States looking at the effect of automatic transmission fluid on nylon. Wikipedia describes ATF as a ?highly-refined mineral oil?. That study saw some effects but ascribed them more to physical side-effects rather than chemical degradation (so not unlike the effect of plain water on nylon)."
W
wormster
Guest
clunk said:
NOPE you thought it was suss, a good reason to doubt it.
better to bin than than to arrive early for the next world.