Hand Ascenders

[wormster]

Here's a quick one:

what's the perferred method of connecting footloop and cowstail to your hand jammer screwgate or mallion?

discuss.

 

[Cave_Troll]

i have a single peice of string that forms my safety cord and foot loop. this is attached to my hand jammer using a maillion. I then have another carabiner clipped into the same loop as the maillion to form a 3rd cows tails.
I do not like the use of a carabiner to connect my hand jammer to safety cord as if you then use it as a 3rd cows tail, sods law says you will drop the jammer off the crab when you open the gate. (not very likely but possible so why risk it?)

 

[Peter Burgess]

May I punctuate your question, please?

"what's the perferred method of connecting footloop and cowstail to your hand jammer - screwgate, or mallion?"

 

[Cave_Troll]

PB, anyone every tell you you're pedantic?

 

[graham]

lorra folk dun thart

 

[wormster]

May I punctuate your question, please?

"what's the perferred method of connecting footloop and cowstail to your hand jammer - screwgate, or mallion?"

Peter, thank you for puncuation.

You are an: :ang:

 

[Frog2]

To correct the spelling - guess it was "preferred" not "perferred"

is pedanting a new sport -                     yet alone a word!

When first shown SRT rigs - connection from safety to 'hand' jammer was an MR - can see the sense in an additional krab to use as 3rd cows tail should be difficult to undo MR's by mistake.

But cows tails usually dynamic rope, normal footloops/safety tend to be offered as static rope - does this make a real difference - obviously no one intends to shock load these.

 

[Cave_Troll]

In 13 years i don't think i've ever shock loaded my cowstails.
over such a small length of rope the difference in stretch between 9mm dynamic and 9mm semi static is probably not much

 

[Cave_Troll]

although i admit its something to consider
i just don't think its a big enough deal to get dynamic safetycord and a static foot loop

 

[Les W]

I use a single piece of static line as a combined foot loop safty cord. I tie in to the hand jammer with a very small loop in the middle and use an HMS karribiner. This serves the purpose of allowing me to easily convert to a 2 to 1 haul by taking the safty cord out of the krab and clipping the rope straight through the krab (protecting myself with the long cows tail). 

This has real benefits when knackered or when climbing with a heavy tackle bag. It is also helpful in (dare I say it) mid rope rescue, etc. :-\

 

[Cave_Troll]

except that when knackered you're more likely to make mistakes like dropping your now not attached hand jammer

 

[Les W]

except that when knackered you're more likely to make mistakes like dropping your now not attached hand jammer

except as I noted in brackets - (protecting myself with the long cows tail)  :read:

Perhaps I should have been more specific about how I was protecting myself ie. with my cowstail clipped to the hand jammer. 

 

[potholer]

I use a short 7mm alloy maillon to attach my combined static 9mm footloop+safety.
Weight is next to nothing, bulk is minimal, it's unlikely to rust closed, and it fits through the smaller hole on the jammer frame.

 

[damian]

I'm with Les W on this one. HMS krab to allow me to convert to a 2:1 rig for rescue etc. I use a single piece of 9mm static as a footloop/safety cord too. Currently use an alpine butterfly as the middle knot - as it's small and doesn't jam in the HMS when pulled over it - but I know a number of people use a bowline on the bight because this can be easily undone and retied if needed. Perhaps I'll do that when I next change my rope.

 

[MSD]

I agree with Potholer that a steel maillon is a bad idea. For many cavers it tends to get opened so seldom that the one time you want to open it (like taking off your ascender to improvise during a rescue), you find it won't open. Plus a steel maillon will wear out the hole in the jammer.

I actually use an ordinary screwgate crab. I tend to carry my jammer clipped on with that very crab, with the foot bit of the footloop clipped into the same crab. That implies that I have to unclip the foot loop and do up the crab at every pitch, but it's never bothered me. I could carry another crab I suppose, but I grudge the extra grammes.

More recently I have sometimes caved French style with no safety cord at all, using my long cowstail to clip into the top jammer. This is ultra light-weight, but after trying it a few times I decided that the extra weight of the safety cord is worthwhile. I thought it worth trying since 95% of French cavers have their rig set up that way. Since I have a spectra footloop, I currently have a seperate safety cord. However, I have considered using a spectra safety cord (again toi reduce weight and bulk). I know this has no shock absorption, but I don't think half a metre of dynamic rope which has been dragged around a load of caves has much energy absorbtion capability anyway. 

I don't see any particular need for three cowstails. Two have done me just fine for over 20 years of vertical caving. I do sometimes use my top jammer instead of a cowstail, mainly on sloping traverses. So that isn't because I need three points of possible attachment, but because I don't want to be exposed to falling back down the traverse.

Mark

 

[paul]

I have a single piece of 8mm cord, one end with small overhand knot loop/7mm maillon to attach to harness maillon.

Other end a large loop using bowline for foot/feet. In middle, nearer to loop/7mm end, another small overhand knot/loop. 10mm oval alloy maillon (because I happened to have one) to connect this loop to my Petzl handleless hand jammer. Spare oval krab clipped to maillon for same reason as Cave_Troll.

Useful features of using single length of cord/rope for footloop and safety link as opposed to two separate lengths:

1) If knackered or towing heavy weight/injured caver up rope you can run the footloop/safety link through the large maillon/oval krab attached to the jammer (with long cowstail attached to jammer as safety link no longer isn't!) and gain a mechanical advantage.

2) You can detach the footloop/safety link, undo the bowline knot and hence large loop for feet/foot and have a length of 8mm cord of nearly 4 metres long in case it is needed.

 

[MSD]

I can do the same, by larks-footing my footloop onto the knot on my safety cord. I would however be perfectly happy with a combined version, but the Petzl spectra footloop doesn't come in such a version, probably because you are not supposed to use spectra as a safety cord.

The Petzl spectra foot loop is a bit expensive, but it is good. No stretch and very light with minimum bulk and so far it's wearing well. The bit you put your foot in is a bit small for two feet, but I can just get them in if I need to. Most of the time I use a Pantin though, so a  one-footed foot loop is just fine for me.

Mark

 

[Robert Scott]

May I punctuate your question, please?

"what's the perferred method of connecting footloop and cowstail to your hand jammer - screwgate, or mallion?"

Because the questioner is presumed to be asking for personal preferences

"what's your preferred method of connecting your footloop and cowstails to your jammer - screwgate karabiner or maillon rapide?"

 

[AndyF]

I agree with Potholer that a steel maillon is a bad idea. For many cavers it tends to get opened so seldom that the one time you want to open it (like taking off your ascender to improvise during a rescue), you find it won't open. Plus a steel maillon will wear out the hole in the jammer.

Totally agree with this view...

IIRC there was some caving acident even death due to a hang up in heavy water that was atributed to the caver being unable to relaese themself from the top ascender...????  if you whack you top ascender into a knot (which of course no-one has ever done!) and you cant free yourself from it then you have a biggger problem than just unclipping and reaching for your spare ascender (whcich if course you have in you kitbag)  :

(spelling and puctuation errors included for the benfit of the clearly bored forum pedants)

 

[Peter Burgess]

PB, anyone every tell you you're pedantic?

Ummm, no. Would you like to be the first? 

Perhaps it's just as well that mistakes made in the text of some cavers' posts are not reflected as life-threatening errors in their caving practices.

I don't think anyone every died from a spelling mistake. I stand to be corrected!