How many UK Cavers are there?

[Duncan Price]

Bill Gascoine used to say that cavers would spend on average 3 years doing the tourist trips. Then, they either started to explore and dig or they stopped.

I reckon on 3 years for a university caver then maybe a couple before giving up or becoming addicted.

The figure of 20,000 cavers was bandied about back in the days of NCA.  I would suggest that double the number of BCA-tax payers go caving on some sort of regular basis - i.e. own their own kit.

 

[NewStuff]

I know just as many cavers/explorers outside of the club/BCA system as in it.

 

[Badlad]

The BCA membership has remained fairly stable over the last few years but that number does not represent active cavers (however they might be defined).  There are cavers who are members of BCA who are no longer active and active cavers who are not part of BCA.  Of the 6099 number quoted over 1000 will be mining members from NAMHO. I think the figure also includes nearly 200 clubs as the club counts as a member in addition to the total number of members within it.  Outside of BCA participation levels are actually quite high with an estimated 150,000 individuals participating in an instructed caving trip each year.  However, the take up into the sport as a 'caver' seems very low and perhaps that is something to work on.  So very difficult to put any figure to 'number of cavers'.

There is some anecdotal evidence of a downturn in active caver numbers.  Some say that when the countryside was closed for foot and mouth disease in 2001/2 it never recovered to pre F&M numbers and has declined since.  This is supported by numbers applying for permit type systems and from observations in popular caves and cave parking areas.  As a regular caver in parts of the Dales myself  I can confirm that active numbers are significantly down from the levels in the 80's and 90's.

Some have suggested that lower numbers are a good thing as this conserves the caves.  However I don't see this as being good for caving or the caves.  It is worth noting that recent discoveries of new caves, new extensions to known caves and connections between caves means that there are more caves to go around than ever before with fewer cavers exploring them.

The suspicion is that the BCA membership is an ageing demographic.  If that is the case then as the older generations drop off the perch there will not be a similar number to replace them and this could reach a tipping point for BCA's current structure.  This has implications for BCA finances, insurance and volunteers to run the association.  Hopefully BCA are taking steps to gather age information with next years membership, something they do not do at present.  After that it can at least be monitored.

Overall I think it is important to promote caving in a positive manner and make it attractive to others.  I was very heartened to read some of the efforts the CHECC clubs are putting in to improving their memberships which I believe are a vital input to our sport.  We probably need to do much more.

 

[droid]

As an active caver in the 80's, I concur with Badlad's observations. ne thing I remember about that time was that the (later renamed 'Hidden Earth') events were far better supported. I was shocked at the lack of attendance at the more recent events I've been to.

A major input into the caving fraternity were the University clubs. This is probably still the case, but the clubs themselves seem rather more sparse.....

 

[Bob Mehew]

The BCRA insurance policy which covered cavers up until 2003 only asked clubs for numbers of members not individual names and addresses. In the run up to setting up the BCA policy it became clear this approach would not work because the cost was going to be much higher.  We knew there was considerable double counting in the BCRA list and asking an individual to pay for separate membership of BCA via 5 separate clubs would provoke a major reaction.  So we chose to obtain names and addresses and count people once.  (In the first couple of years of BCA we had a mammoth headache driving out duplication.  I was surprised at the number of persons who were members of different clubs with same address but slightly different name, cf Bob v Robert.)  I can't recall how many people were covered under the BCRA scheme but I suspect it was of the order of 12,000 which is perhaps what mrodoc recalls.  I am not sure about 20,000.

I had gained the impression the three year figure was derived in the 70s from the then typical University degree period.  The claim at that time was that university clubs were the major source of cavers who kept on caving (like myself).  3 years was sufficient time for an individual to develop enough to have done a reasonable range of caves and decide whether to continue caving or give up on getting their degree.

I do not have direct access to BCA's membership data base but I guess that those BCA member clubs who do not obtain insurance via BCA are fairly small in size and thus the extra cavers is a small number compared to 6000, well under 1000.  I suggest the only way you can get an estimate of cavers who have no link to BCA is to go and sit at some cave entrances and ask those who descend.  It could well be a moderate sized figure given the way access to kit is now almost all in the hands of shops and knowledge of caves fairly free on the internet.  Back in the 60's there were few ladder suppliers and you had to find the name of a guide book before you could buy it.  So people then tended to join clubs.  Not so now. 

BCA membership numbers are given each AGM, see page 14 at http://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=about:documents:general_meetings:agm_minutes_2016.pdf.  The first few years were not typical (DCA supplied insurance for a couple of years).  But I would suggest the number of cavers has been slightly increasing since 2007 (4965) up to 2014 (5564).  (Not sure where I found 6099 I reported earlier  :-[) 

I agree with Badlad that the foot and mouth ban in 2001 did cause a number of cavers to give up (as my daughter did).  And soon after then, health and safety demands closed a number of university clubs.  Fortunately CHECC has been set up since then.

More interestingly, membership numbers are not reused, so the AGM reported that just under 16,000 had been issued since 2004.  I reckon that indicates around 500 persons leave BCA and 500 newly join each year in addition to the small yearly increase of some 50 or so over the pasty 10 plus years.

BCA does distinguish between active and inactive cavers.  The AGM indicates some 900 non / inactive caving.  But as argued earlier is there really a difference between the two?

 

[mikem]

Alternatively, maybe there weren't more cavers, they were just a lot slower moving around the caves with ladders & wetsuits  :-\

Certainly the majority of caving used to be on weekends, whilst possibly just as many teams nowadays are getting out midweek.

I think the 10,000 is probably nearer the mark, there are plenty of non-club cavers. However, there are only limited caves they can access, so I also agree that many will do it for about 3 years before either joining a club or doing something different.

Mike

 

[PeteHall]

Alternatively, maybe there weren't more cavers, they were just a lot slower moving around the caves with ladders & wetsuits  :-\

Certainly the majority of caving used to be on weekends, whilst possibly just as many teams nowadays are getting out midweek.

Now there's a thought  :-\

I guess with lighter equipment (and smaller groups to carry it) an evening trip during the week is a lot more worthwhile (and from personal experience, a lot easier to fit in).

 

[NewStuff]

I do not have direct access to BCA's membership data base but I guess that those BCA member clubs who do not obtain insurance via BCA are fairly small in size and thus the extra cavers is a small number compared to 6000, well under 1000.

Not a single Caver/Explorer I know that *isn't* part of the BCA, is in a club. They may know each other, meet on the odd occasion, go underground etc, but there's certainly nothing with the structure or organisation of a club. They just go caving/exploring, and are either unaware (few) of the BCA or are just not interested in Clubs, BCA etc (Most). At a guess, we're talking over a hundred. There are more than you think, at least in N.Wales.

 

[traff]

I have on several occasions quoted some anecdotal evidance, here is an example from a previous thread discussing the BCA membership:

I am a caver who chooses not to be a member of a club or the BCA.

I do not live in a caving region where I would expect to meet cavers, but have still met a half a dozen or more cavers in everyday life.
Not one of those cavers were in a club or the BCA. I find that quite a startling statistic.

Of course it could be a freak data set but none the less I believe it points to a significant number (possibly a majority?) of cavers with no say.

Since that quote over two years ago I have met yet more cavers who are neither BCA or club members. It is becoming far too much of a coincidence for me.

I wouldn't be supprised at all if the caving population was double the BCA membership.

 

[Bob Mehew]

Not a single Caver/Explorer I know that *isn't* part of the BCA, is in a club.

Sorry perhaps I was not clear.  According to BCA's AGM report there are 169 member clubs.  I am assuming many of them have made their members Club Individual members of BCA in order to obtain the protection of insurance which only comes with BCA individual membership.  That leaves an assumed small number of BCA member clubs whose individual members have not been counted in the 5564 individual members.  It is that group of people who I think are small in comparison to the 5564 number and can be discounted. 

Then there are an known unknown number of clubs who have no relationship with BCA.  I can understand how there may well be a moderate number of such clubs in North Wales as there appears to be few attractions for them to become members of BCA.  But the same is not true for say the Dales where legal access effectively requires a club to be a member of BCA in order to get a permit via CNCC.  Though I admit that leaves a number of clubs who just pirate.

And then as you say there are another  group of individuals who are not in any club but loosely associate with other persons to go caving. 

For what it is worth, I go along with traff.  My guess is that these known unknowns are unlikely to amount to more than the existing known number of 5000 plus so an estimate of 10,000 total number of persons going caving seems reasonable.  As for the unknown unknowns, my guess is that they are unlikely to reach another 5000 and in terms of quoting a global figure not worth including in the 10,000 estimate.

 

[Kenilworth]

Some have suggested that lower numbers are a good thing as this conserves the caves.  However I don't see this as being good for caving or the caves.

Caving is an activity. It is immune from harm.
Unless, even after all the semantic discussion in this thread, you are referring to caving as an activity taking place under the sanction of an organization, in which case a faltering organization would equal decreased participation in "caving".

There have lately been several similar arguments made about caver numbers in the US. It is common to hear NSS members claim that "caves need us" and that declining caver numbers will lead to destruction of caves by vandals. This is not only logically false as cavers do little to prevent vandalism, but it abundantly obvious that karst areas that have been long abandoned by "cavers" and see only local, "non-caver" traffic are much more well-preserved. I have personally spent the last six years exploring and documenting in two such regions, and to go from these to the caver-rich areas of West Virginia or Kentucky is very depressing. 

BCA and NSS are institutions that no longer serve an honorable purpose. Why are people so attached to them? Why can't we care more about each other, and the caves, than we do a hobby club? I believe that many people are afraid to see them fail because they get a feeling of legitimacy from club membership. If that is the case, if we cannot be self-motivated and self-fulfilling, we shouldn't be caving anyway.

 

[Badlad]

I'm not quite sure where you come from on this Kenilworth.  If you, me and everyone else stopped caving the caves would be better preserved for sure.  However, I am a big supporter of caving as a recreational activity and see it as no different from rock climbing, mountaineering, fell running, canyoning, rambling etc.  I may go caving on a weekend, on a thursday or after work on Tuesday night.  It is like getting my mountain bike out or pulling on my rock boots - a normal activity.

If we stopped industrialisation, population growth, deforestation etc, the world would be more like it was.  If we didn't go walking up hills, mountaineering, or rock climbing those environments would be much better preserved.  But none of that is likely to happen. 

Having a strong and respected national association will be good for both the activity and the caves in the longer term.  Any national association needs to be pro-active and well resourced with staff and members in order to represent its interests and to look after the resource (caves in our case) where the activity takes place, not just from cavers but other destructive interests.

Caving on your own in little visited caves is probably having more of an impact than hundreds of cavers visiting well used caves.  I always find it odd when those who cave seem to suggest that others shouldn't - as if they have no impact on the caves themselves.  I've enjoyed all my caving immensely and I'm keen to promote caving to others so that they can enjoy it too and there is certainly room for more cavers in the UK.  Nowadays I do all my caving outside of a club structure but still recognise how important clubs and institutions are.  Cheers

 

[NewStuff]

Badlad - I've already had this out with him. The summation is that he thinks some sort of committee of "elite" cavers should pick who is and is not allowed in the caves, to "minimise wear".

 

[droid]

He also doesn't stick to the point, introducing his own topic then pontificating about it.

No-one on this thread has suggested that 'caves need us'.

Is this known as a 'straw man' argument?

 

[nickwilliams]

BCA and NSS are institutions that no longer serve an honorable purpose.

They have their faults, sure, but to claim they "no longer serve an honorable purpose" is just bollocks.

 

[mrodoc]

Alternatively, maybe there weren't more cavers, they were just a lot slower moving around the caves with ladders & wetsuits  :-\

Certainly the majority of caving used to be on weekends, whilst possibly just as many teams nowadays are getting out midweek.

I think the 10,000 is probably nearer the mark, there are plenty of non-club cavers. However, there are only limited caves they can access, so I also agree that many will do it for about 3 years before either joining a club or doing something different.

Mike

You didn't cave in the era of high speed caving when the aim seemed to be get round the system as fast as possible. There were even articles written about it in the caving press.  I must say I enjoy the more leisurely trips I have nowadays with better lighting and clothing.

 

[The Old Ruminator]

Yup. : You could not hang around doing Stoke Lane in three woolly jumpers. In any case folk are more conservation conscious today and probably move slower. As to the fitness of today's cavers --- ? :doubt:

 

[wookey]

no waiting for 2, 3 or more groups in Ireby and other classic trips

Right, when I started in 1987/88 this sort of thing was not unusual (3 groups with 3 lots of rope down one cave). It's been 15 years since I saw such a thing (although I also go caving _much_ less often in the UK, so am less likely to see it). Big queues in Swildons in October were still a thing maybe 5 years ago, and I expect that still happens.

Numbers like 20,000 cavers were mooted circa 1990 in pre-BCA days. But it was much harder to work out due to multiple counting of people, as joining more than one club for CNCC/CSCC caving access reasons was commonplace. It was thought that 20,000 was probably an overestimate.

re facebook - I didn't know there was a page and have not 'liked' it, nor am I likely to. I do have an (unused) facebook account.

 

[Alex]

You didn't cave in the era of high speed caving when the aim seemed to be get round the system as fast as possible. There were even articles written about it in the caving press.  I must say I enjoy the more leisurely trips I have nowadays with better lighting and clothing.

I suspect the lack of decent clothing was the reason for moving so fast, they just wanted to stay warm!