How many UK Cavers are there?

[Kenilworth]

Why exactly is it meaningless? That phrase works, everyone has his/her own reasons for enjoying underground. People are not a homogeneous mass.

Because it communicates nothing.

 

[mudman]

Why exactly is it meaningless? That phrase works, everyone has his/her own reasons for enjoying underground. People are not a homogeneous mass.

Because it communicates nothing.

I disagree. It means that the cave is enjoyed, simply because it is a cave. It doesn't have to be anything else, changed, added to, subtracted from, it just 'is' and that in itself is something that can be enjoyed.

 

[Ian Adams]

A caver might enjoy caving for;

* The experience of being underground
* Geology
* Mineralogy
* Photography
* SRT challenges
* Shared companionship in a.n.other environment
* Wet caving
* Dry caving
* Escapism
* Natural history
* Exploration
* Digging / New Ground
* Sightseeing
* The Challenge

If Mine exploring is added to the definition you could include;

* Industrial/mining history
* Engineering
* Enhanced geology/mineralogy

I am certain I have missed things off  the list(s) but I think it overcomes the phrase "meaningless" .....



Ian

 

[NewStuff]

Why exactly is it meaningless? That phrase works, everyone has his/her own reasons for enjoying underground. People are not a homogeneous mass.

Because it communicates nothing.

It certainly does. Notice no-one else has issue with that post. I suspect there is, yet again, a culture difference.  See other posts above for reasons why it is not meaningless.

 

[droid]

I suspect it's just Kenilworth trying to be controversial again.

 

[NewStuff]

I suspect it's just Kenilworth trying to be controversial again.

There is that. I'm very "Bull in a China Shop" when I call people out though, so I was avoiding it. Feel free to step in and take my usual place though.

 

[droid]

I'm not sure the word 'Bollocks' would go down to well, otherwise I would.....

 

[nearlywhite]

... the have-a-go, all-comers, make-do-and-mend approach seems to have gone from a lot of sports. Once upon a time a ladder party was needed, now perhaps trips are faster and as a result harder?

Agreed

This would be backed up by the traditional bias between Northern and Southern student caving, namely larger clubs in the south and smaller very SRT focused in the north

 

[Smiley Alan]

primarily if a person identifies themselves as a caver

so is a caver  any one who  calls themselfs a caver then ?

 

[mudman]

primarily if a person identifies themselves as a caver

so is a caver  any one who  calls themselfs a caver then ?

I think that is probably true.
However, we will then get into the argument about what constitutes a 'real' caver.  :-\

 

[Pegasus]

Any chance we could get back on topic?? 

 

[TheBitterEnd]

Any chance we could get back on topic?? 

Posts #1 and #2 seem to have covered the topic, between 4000 and 6000, then the hyenas turned up to chew on the carcass of this thread ;-)

 

[JasonC]

The only hard figure quoted here is the 6099 for BCA membership.  No doubt this includes some who are not 'active', however this is defined, but also there are probably some (more?, who knows) non-members who cave actively.
So maybe 6000-8000 ?

But the cafe population/car parking will be affected by how active those cavers are.  There are those who get underground weekly, or more, of whom I'm certainly not one.  Are those hard-core types fewer than in days of yore ?  If so, that might explain the reduced number of caving trips taking place.

I'm guessing that the hard-core numbers are decreasing a) because of less time available: both in work and play and b) the increasing average age of cavers - family commitments militate against very regular caving.

All of this of course is guesswork, but in the absence of any other actual data, mine guess is as good as anyone's

 

[adam]

How about those who have retired from active duty in the UK due to old age but still fancy a bit of speleotourisme abroad from time to time? 

Thinking about a possible explanation for a decline in popularity, I wonder if it has anything to do with the relative ease of exploration in the UK. Back in the 'golden age' of caving which I would guess at being the 60's and 70's, caves were being discovered and explored at an alarming rate. I imagine (cos I wasn't there) that this was a particularly exciting time to be a caver. I imagine that it created a buzz that enthused everyone in the sport, not just those making the discoveries.

Of course exploration continues today, but it does so at a much slower rate and with much greater effort. If you want to find new cave, you've generally got to dig or dive. I just wonder if that slowing of the pace is part of the reason why there appears to be fewer participants these days.

 

[PeteHall]

I seem to remember in one of Sid Perou's early caving films a quote along the lines of

"they say most men cave for about three years, most women till they find their man"

If that was indeed the case, what we are basically talking about then is a lot of people, keen for a very short time.

Some of those people have obviously remained keen and perhaps now, we have just lost the short term cavers from the equation all together. Most cavers seem to stick at it now?

Perhaps the number of people who cave for more than 3 years is the same as it always was?

Room for a complete new thread perhaps, how have UK cavers changed? (no idea, not a lot seems to have changed in the 11 or so years I have been caving)

 

[Kenilworth]

Any chance we could get back on topic?? 

I've caved in The Dales for 30 years +.  I no longer see cafes and pubs packed with cavers on a weekend, often few if any cars parked in Kingsdale, no waiting for 2, 3 or more groups in Ireby and other classic trips - anecdotal I know but I feel there are fewer cavers going caving.....

Do you view this as a negative, positive, or simply curious development?

 

[Kenilworth]

Why exactly is it meaningless? That phrase works, everyone has his/her own reasons for enjoying underground. People are not a homogeneous mass.

Because it communicates nothing.

I disagree. It means that the cave is enjoyed, simply because it is a cave. It doesn't have to be anything else, changed, added to, subtracted from, it just 'is' and that in itself is something that can be enjoyed.

Your explanation Illustrates perfectly that the phrase means nothing. It could easily be said that everything is enjoyed "for its own sake" and none of us would know any more than before. A cake, for instance can be enjoyed simply because it is a cake.
This is unimportant though, and not worth much argument.

Newstuff - Unless I'm wrong, which I often am. The "their" in the original sentence referred to the cave, not the caver.

 

[mudman]

I seem to remember in one of Sid Perou's early caving films a quote along the lines of

"they say most men cave for about three years, most women till they find their man"

If that was indeed the case, what we are basically talking about then is a lot of people, keen for a very short time.

Some of those people have obviously remained keen and perhaps now, we have just lost the short term cavers from the equation all together. Most cavers seem to stick at it now?

Perhaps the number of people who cave for more than 3 years is the same as it always was?

Room for a complete new thread perhaps, how have UK cavers changed? (no idea, not a lot seems to have changed in the 11 or so years I have been caving)

Bill Gascoine used to say that cavers would spend on average 3 years doing the tourist trips. Then, they either started to explore and dig or they stopped.

 

[Simon Wilson]

The only hard figure quoted here is the 6099 for BCA membership.  No doubt this includes some who are not 'active', however this is defined, but also there are probably some (more?, who knows) non-members who cave actively.
So maybe 6000-8000 ?

But the cafe population/car parking will be affected by how active those cavers are.  There are those who get underground weekly, or more, of whom I'm certainly not one.  Are those hard-core types fewer than in days of yore ?  If so, that might explain the reduced number of caving trips taking place.

I'm guessing that the hard-core numbers are decreasing a) because of less time available: both in work and play and b) the increasing average age of cavers - family commitments militate against very regular caving.

All of this of course is guesswork, but in the absence of any other actual data, mine guess is as good as anyone's

To put that another way, how many UK cavers are there that haven't been discovered yet?

 

[David Rose]

Maybe it's because I mainly cave with old farts like myself, but I think Sid was wrong to say most cavers are active for only three years. 30 years would be closer to the mark, and even that would be an underestimate. As to women: there are so many women cavers who have been active for a very long time, and have remained so after forming relationships or getting married. We can all name some of them, I'm sure, starting with the estimable Pegasus!