How many UK Cavers are there?

[topcat]

A useful definition might be based on whether a person has definite plans to go caving in the future.  Someone who has caved with the Scouts, or indeed caved extensively as an individual, can hardly be counted if they don't plan to do so again....they are ex-cavers.

I have no idea how many that would add up to.  There may be more ex-cavers than cavers!!

 

[mudman]

A useful definition might be based on whether a person has definite plans to go caving in the future.  Someone who has caved with the Scouts, or indeed caved extensively as an individual, can hardly be counted if they don't plan to do so again....they are ex-cavers.

I have no idea how many that would add up to.  There may be more ex-cavers than cavers!!

I think that's too simplistic. I will definitely have to stop caving in the future but I will always count myself as a caver. I might not be an active caver, but I will always have the mindset that wants to explore and discover something new (even if just to me) along with a deep fascination of all things underground that is part of what defines a caver.

 

[topcat]

I can't see how someone that no longer caves can be counted, no matter what their history might be.

I last played rugby in 1979: am I still a rugby player?  I have sailed before, in the 80's.................but it would be rather silly to suggest I am a sailor.  I was in the national team for shooting many years ago.........etc etc................  I once took a photograph of a red squirrel....doesn't make me a wildlife photographer 

 

[Goydenman]

I have often wondered how many and when asked been guessing 20-25k at it height but prob a bit less now....looking like I was way out if its about 8-10k

 

[mudman]

I can't see how someone that no longer caves can be counted, no matter what their history might be.

I last played rugby in 1979: am I still a rugby player?  I have sailed before, in the 80's.................but it would be rather silly to suggest I am a sailor.  I was in the national team for shooting many years ago.........etc etc................  I once took a photograph of a red squirrel....doesn't make me a wildlife photographer 

Yeah, yeah. I'm not going to get into a silly argument about this. I shall always be a caver, I may not always be able to cave due to infirmity, but I'll never give up caving.

 

[mch]

Yeah, yeah. I'm not going to get into a silly argument about this. I shall always be a caver, I may not always be able to cave due to infirmity, but I'll never give up caving.

I'm with mudman on this one. I've been a caver for nearly 40 years and as I'm 70 next month realistically I can foresee the day when I can no longer actively get underground, but I shall always regard myself as a caver.

I struggle with the definition of 'cavers' and 'mine explorers', as I do both, often simultaneously

Like pwhole, I generally venture underground in the Peak District, and therefore it is impossible to define yourself as one or the other - I regard myself as a caver pure and simple.

 

[ALEXW]

Contrariwise, I am a member of a club, have all my own kit, BCA insurance and occasionally venture underground.
It is a peripheral hobby, I wouldn't lose sleep if I never ventured underground again.
I regard myself as a bloke who goes caving, I don't have the necessary mindset to call myself "A Caver".

 

[TheBitterEnd]

Perhaps Pegasus could/should define "caver" for the purposes of this thread rather than arguing over semantics?

FWIW I would consider a couple of things, primarily if a person identifies themselves as a caver and secondarily if they have a wider interest in caving than the occasional sport trip. For me these criteria would apply to just about any activity.

 

[PeteHall]

primarily if a person identifies themselves as a caver

 

[alastairgott]

Perhaps Pegasus could/should define "caver" for the purposes of this thread rather than arguing over semantics?

I think it includes Speleologists, and other people with a general interest in the subject.

MCH is clearly a caver in my eyes (as I think you could call him a speleologist, due to his clear interest in Derbyshire Caving through the DCA newsletter).

Alex and other dabblers are a tricky one, because I'm sure that they would go caving more if they wanted to but don't see themselves as caving regularly.

I know that some people in the outdoor industry can only do personal caving in winter, otherwise it's just working in a cave in the summer.
They may or may not describe themselves as a caver.

Difficult...

 

[mikem]

More specific according to dictionary.com (although they can't pronounce it!):
[key-ver] noun: a person who studies or explores caves.

That reduces numbers somewhat, whilst freedictionary.com is a bit more forgiving:
1. One that caves.
2. One who explores or studies caves, especially as a sport or recreational pursuit.

Meanwhile urbandictionary.com is less offensive than many of it's definitions:
One who caves or gives in too easily. Doesn't put up a stand/ a fight for what they want to do or believe is true.

& from Webster's Home Cave:
So what is a caver? Unlike spelunkers, whose skills are questionable, and speleologists, who seem distinctly serious and un-fun, a caver may be considered the middle of the road cave explorer. Cavers enjoy caves for their own sake, and most people whose interest in caving is primarily recreational consider themselves cavers. Cavers often possess the best technical skills in moving safely underground, and many of the innovations in new equipment have been invented by cavers.

Mike

 

[Pegasus]

Perhaps Pegasus could/should define "caver" for the purposes of this thread rather than arguing over semantics?

OK, for the purposes of this thread......I would count PaulW as a 'caver'

Contrariwise, I am a member of a club, have all my own kit, BCA insurance and occasionally venture underground.
It is a peripheral hobby, I wouldn't lose sleep if I never ventured underground again.
I regard myself as a bloke who goes caving, I don't have the necessary mindset to call myself "A Caver"

I wouldn't describe people who cave only once as part of a school group/group activity as cavers.

By Mudman

I shall always be a caver, I may not always be able to cave due to infirmity, but I'll never give up caving.

I agree wholeheartedly with this sentiment - I too will always be a caver.  Therefore, again for the purposes of this thread, maybe I should have asked how many active cavers are there?  Going caving a few times a year still counts as active in this context.



By pwhole

I struggle with the definition of 'cavers' and 'mine explorers', as I do both, often simultaneously, see little existential difference between them, and genuinely have no preference - I think it would be a bit weird to state a preference, to be honest, at least as far as I'm concerned.

pwhole is right of course.  Folks who venture underground (see what I did there) may be cavers, mine explorers or of course both.  For the purposes of this thread, (as I'm wondering how many cavers there are currently caving reasonably regularly in the UK) a 'caver' wouldn't be someone who exclusively explores mines and never visits natural caves.  If they do as pwhole describes then they are a 'caver' - again for the purposes of this thread only.

I've caved in The Dales for 30 years +.  I no longer see cafes and pubs packed with cavers on a weekend, often few if any cars parked in Kingsdale, no waiting for 2, 3 or more groups in Ireby and other classic trips - anecdotal I know but I feel there are fewer cavers going caving.....

 

[Kenilworth]

I've caved in The Dales for 30 years +.  I no longer see cafes and pubs packed with cavers on a weekend, often few if any cars parked in Kingsdale, no waiting for 2, 3 or more groups in Ireby and other classic trips - anecdotal I know but I feel there are fewer cavers going caving.....

Do you view this as a negative, positive, or simply curious development?

 

[PaulW]

Perhaps Pegasus could/should define "caver" for the purposes of this thread rather than arguing over semantics?

OK, for the purposes of this thread......I would count PaulW as a 'caver'

Thank you thats nice to know, I've been called much worse........

But I think you meant ALEXW 

 

[Pegasus]

Perhaps Pegasus could/should define "caver" for the purposes of this thread rather than arguing over semantics?

OK, for the purposes of this thread......I would count PaulW as a 'caver'

Thank you thats nice to know, I've been called much worse........



But I think you meant ALEXW 

Oops  :-[ :-[

 

[Mattrees]

Cavers enjoy caves for their own sake

This.

 

[Kenilworth]

Cavers enjoy caves for their own sake

This.

...is entirely meaningless.

 

[NewStuff]

Although I'm primarily a mine explorer, I do visit the odd cave, it depends on the mood really, there are far fewer caves around here, and it's not unusual to see mined out natural. Some of the mines I've been through recently are easily as squeezy as most caves.

Cavers enjoy caves for their own sake

This.

...is entirely meaningless.

Why exactly is it meaningless? That phrase works, everyone has his/her own reasons for enjoying underground. People are not a homogeneous mass.

 

[nearlywhite]

Anyone who identifies as a caver is a caver.

That would imply that the ranks should be swelling as those who came into the sport 50 of years ago are adding to a generation that wasn't really there when they started. The numbers have been pretty static on the BCA insurance scheme since most cavers have joined.

If there are fewer cavers than there used to be then it all points to a demographic crisis sadly, and potentially leaves caving with unsustainable infrastructure costs (in the form of huts). This shouldn't be surprising as the traditional recruitment routes, I.e. scout and university caving have suffered from things like the 'health and safety' culture.

There are a lot of clubs that don't get anyone into caving and rely on university alumni moving on and joining them. Is it a bad thing? I'd say yes as I'd never have been a caver if I hadn't gone to a university that had a caving club. I just wouldn't have considered it.

Anyway, I'll put the soap box away now  :-[

 

[TheBitterEnd]

I've caved in The Dales for 30 years +.  I no longer see cafes and pubs packed with cavers on a weekend, often few if any cars parked in Kingsdale, no waiting for 2, 3 or more groups in Ireby and other classic trips - anecdotal I know but I feel there are fewer cavers going caving.....

May be it's because they are caving rather than sitting around in cafes and pubs 

I seem to recall that there have been several threads on this topic over the years and the concenus of those threads seems to be that there are fewer cavers. Things like the wider variety of alternative activities such as mountian biking and kayaking are often cited but personally I wonder if the bar to getting into caving has been raised? Or actually I think what I mean is the ramp-up has been significantly steepened? I don't think this just applies to caving either, the have-a-go, all-comers, make-do-and-mend approach seems to have gone from a lot of sports. Once upon a time a ladder party was needed, now perhaps trips are faster and as a result harder?