Huts re-opening - not quite yet

[alastairgott]

If other clubs wish to debate this, then they can. On behalf of my club the TSG I am opting out of this debate and would urge other members to do the same. No single member of our club makes decisions, we are a collective, and will make our decision based on members past and present.

 

[mikem]

I doubt many will discuss specifics on a public forum, unless they feel they are not being listened to. Most clubs will be talking about it in their own media, so it is useful to see what other clubs are feeling...

 

[Jenny P]

It does seem that many clubs are using the time to check their huts and also do some essential maintenance and improvements.  Depending on where the club is situated it may be possible to do this without worrying neighbours.  It's also possible to carry out work where only one person is on site at a time and where you have already set out cleaning routines to be carried out by those working before they leave the site.

Having a club hut, which is technically classed as a 'hostel', right in the middle of a village does have problems which other huts way out in the middle of nowhere don't have to worry about. 

However, as Pete's post from earlier today show, we'd do well not to be complacent and assume it can't happen to us 'cos we're rufty tufty cavers.

Sorry but I have taken a bashing about being risk adverse. 

Prioritising safety over convenience is how I would view it. I'd hate to see my club shut down or decimated because an outbreak hit us. A friend of mine died the night before last of corona. He was a caver and member of my club and rescue team. It's still out there and just as lethal. We're fools to rush into something just because we can, when we really need to first consider if we should. Each to their own on choosing to cave again, but those who operate communal facilities must take the highest level of precautionary approach to this virus.
Keep up the good work Bob.

 

[menacer]

Personally I think the whole thing is ridiculous and clubs owe it to their members to open up or refund the membership fees for services not provided

Its another danger or risk in life, like driving to the club's is an acceptable risk and caving is an acceptable risk..
Why should Covid be any different?
If you don't want to risk your life doing any of the above, don't do it.
Fine, you stay away if thats what you want, but to ask all other club members at the expense of their daily mental health suffering is cruel and narrow minded.

You cannot make a public space safe from Covid.
Its here to stay.
It'll still be here in 5 years time.

You want to wait for a vaccine, fine, you stay away and stay at home waiting
.
In the meantime other people would like to continue living their lives without everyone treating them like their some sort of typhoid Mary.

Open clubs to members at their own risk

We're all grown ups.
You seriously can't be waiting for govn legislation to tell you how to do that safely!
Its not realistic in a hostel style setting and will never be an avoidable hazard
Ever

Clubs don't have cleaners and employees, they never will. 

Too many people aren't voicing their frustrations at this because the same old feeble politicians come along and silence debate by saying" you might kill granny " etc, that's not good enough.

I know people who have died diving, and caving and driving  I don't call for it to be the trump card in an arguement why diving should be closed down.
Shit happens.

You all know this.

I will offer a solution also rather than just rant.
I belong to 2 caving clubs, as such I can take up the position from any committee person who doesn't want the risk of clubs opening on their shoulders.
I invite anyone similarly minded to offer the same.


See sense people please. 

 

[andrewmcleod]

You seriously can't be waiting for govn legislation to tell you how to do that safely!

People are waiting for government legislation that lets them do it *legally* - you can't expect people to open club huts in a way that is illegal. That is different from following or not following guidelines.

Clubs don't have cleaners and employees, they never will. 

Actually, some of them do...

 

[Badlad]

We had our scheduled CNCC meeting yesterday.  A run around those clubs reps who had huts suggested  that some had opened their tackle stores and others planned to do so soon, mostly with a booking system.  Some planned a phased reopening of accommodation starting with a limited use of either household or social bubbles, booking, camping outside etc, but at least something.

Of the clubs without huts, all who spoke were doing some caving, if limited.  Digging, small group or family trips etc. mostly adhering to the CNCC advice of being cautious, caving within capabilities and being considerate to others.

The vast majority of caves in our area are open, with landowner support and approval.  A few are not so check CNCC website or ask local cavers first.  Our chairman reports, and I concur, that we have had no complaints from landowners or local communities and some gratifying expressions of support where we have been invited to help.  The honey pot visitor sites across the Dales have been inundated at times with some poor behaviour reported and mountains of trash left behind.  However, as far as we can tell it has not affected the high regard with which cavers are now held by many landowners who have benefited from our assistance over the years. 

If you are caving in the Dales please help us maintain and improve on this positive opinion.

 

[mikem]

& most Mendip huts are in a similar position (clubhouses are also supposed to stay shut, never mind hostels). There's nothing to stop locals caving, apart from the lack of information flow.

 

[Pete K]

...Its another danger or risk in life, like driving to the club's is an acceptable risk and caving is an acceptable risk..
Why should Covid be any different?...

I would imagine that it is very hard to kill dozens of people behind the wheel or in a cave. It is not just about how an individual accepts the risk to themselves, but how that person feels about potentially transmitting it to others.

Open clubs to members at their own risk

Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 springs to mind. I'm pretty sure the club would remain liable and legally responsible for it's duty of care regardless what you get people to sign. Waivers are barely worth the paper they are written on.

We're all grown ups.
You seriously can't be waiting for govn legislation to tell you how to do that safely!

As has been pointed out already, we can wait to establish what we legally need to do and then work out if that can be done in our own club settings.

Clubs don't have cleaners and employees, they never will.

Which might be something clubs need to do in future if they cannot rely on members to do it.

Too many people aren't voicing their frustrations at this because the same old feeble politicians come along and silence debate by saying" you might kill granny " etc, that's not good enough.

"I'm alright Jack, pull the ladder up"
I'm pretty frustrated by this whole virus thing. I have had no income since it started and have spent much of the last few months unable to take part in the hobby I love like everyone else. What would be really frustrating is to have gone through all that to see it happen again. I'd accept a bit more personal disruption for some saved lives and keeping us out of a second lockdown.

I know people who have died diving, and caving and driving  I don't call for it to be the trump card in an arguement why diving should be closed down. Shit happens.

Again, as tragic as those deaths are, it is very hard for a dead driver / diver / caver to then cause the illness and death of other people on the scale that is possible with the virus.

----

We had our scheduled CNCC meeting yesterday....

We held our second DCA meeting since lockdown began recently and I can confirm that the state of play in the Peak is very much the same as the Dales. Some caves remain shut because the owner wishes it so. Digging and limited sport caving is going on. DCA have projects teams out capping shafts again. Locals are being liaised with and on the whole, everyone is being very sensible.

 

[PeteHall]

As I have said elsewhere, if this virus is here to stay, we're just going to have to get used to it.

Commercial cleaners, sanitising everything, every day in club huts is not a long term solution.

Members sanitising everything they touch after touching it is not a long term solution.

As menacer says, we're all grown up's and need to make our own decisions about what risks we are or aren't prepared to take.

This whole situation has seen the most unprecedented erosion of civil liberty, which I find very worrying. Yet anyone who stands up to it is accused of an "I'm alright Jack" attitude,  or worse. I'm amazed that there haven't been riots, oh wait...

It's no wonder people are keeping their heads down and carrying on regardless. Those opposed will be at home and none the wiser. Anyone you meet out is clearly of the same mindset.

 

[Bob Mehew]

Members sanitising everything they touch after touching it is not a long term solution.

It is worth bearing in mind on the specific topic of sanitisers and disinefectants, that there are two types, anti-bacterial and anti-viral.  Being one does not mean it will deal with the other.  The most recommended hand sanitiser is a 70% alcohol based hand rub as it deals with both viruses and bacteria.  Unfortunately it is costly.  Which is why you will find many hand sanitisers made available at places are only anti bacterial.  Hence of no value against the Covid 19 virus.

 

[menacer]

...Its another danger or risk in life, like driving to the club's is an acceptable risk and caving is an acceptable risk..
Why should Covid be any different?...

I would imagine that it is very hard to kill dozens of people behind the wheel or in a cave. It is not just about how an individual accepts the risk to themselves, but how that person feels about potentially transmitting it to others.
if a person travels out stays in an area whilst showing symptoms, that person is likely to do so anyway, any where, whether caving club, supermarket, petrol station


If a person shows no symptoms, the same applies anywhere every day of your life, for ever.
How would they knows they a) had it or b) was the cause of someone else getting it

Open clubs to members at their own risk

Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 springs to mind. I'm pretty sure the club would remain liable and legally responsible for it's duty of care regardless what you get people to sign. Waivers are barely worth the paper they are written on.
How could you prove a person caught Covid and was severely disabled by it or did from it from 1 location.

We're all grown ups.
You seriously can't be waiting for govn legislation to tell you how to do that safely!

As has been pointed out already, we can wait to establish what we legally need to do and then work out if that can be done in our own club settings.
quite right, with more emphasis on can do not can't do.
If you're uncomfortable with a can do attitude, maybe step aside and allow others to fill the void

Clubs don't have cleaners and employees, they never will.

Which might be something clubs need to do in future if they cannot rely on members to do it.
maybe, between every used glass, cup and utensil and touched surface?

Too many people aren't voicing their frustrations at this because the same old feeble politicians come along and silence debate by saying" you might kill granny " etc, that's not good enough.

"I'm alright Jack, pull the ladder up"
I'm pretty frustrated by this whole virus thing. I have had no income since it started and have spent much of the last few months unable to take part in the hobby I love like everyone else. What would be really frustrating is to have gone through all that to see it happen again. I'd accept a bit more personal disruption for some saved lives and keeping us out of a second lockdown.
so, for how long?
I'm guessing you have either savings or furlough money. What will change in 3 months time for you to go to work again and use a caving club.
What are you hoping will change in 6 months time and then a year?
I feel pretty confident that in 1 years time, you could find yourself caving along side someone who is asymptomatic of Covid, but has it, do you lock away everyone now who has a cold, just in case you pass that cold to you're grandma and she dies of pnumonia? 

I know people who have died diving, and caving and driving  I don't call for it to be the trump card in an arguement why diving should be closed down. Shit happens.

Again, as tragic as those deaths are, it is very hard for a dead driver / diver / caver to then cause the illness and death of other people on the scale that is possible with the virus.
as far as I'm aware, the original, ground zero family that bought Covid back from Italy on a skiing trip hasn't hasn't been prosecuted, and rightly so to.....

----

We had our scheduled CNCC meeting yesterday....

We held our second DCA meeting since lockdown began recently and I can confirm that the state of play in the Peak is very much the same as the Dales. Some caves remain shut because the owner wishes it so. Digging and limited sport caving is going on. DCA have projects teams out capping shafts again. Locals are being liaised with and on the whole, everyone is being very sensible.

yes, those of us who are sensible have continued to work and enjoy life throughout this, without causing Covid spikes or killing our fellow employees ( astonishing I know)
We do continue to be deeply saddened by the many people around who are losing their jobs, livelihoods, suffered mental health issues, isolation, anxiety, all of which caving clubs provide a daily part in preventing.

 

[owd git]

Wind your neck in, and why the red mist. eh?
you need to get out more! chill .  :kiss2:

 

[PeteHall]

why the red mist. eh?

Red text is commonly used in the workplace to make notes on something someone else has prepared, be that an email or technical drawing. It makes it very easy to see what comment relates to what previous statement, rather than the alternative of a long rambling narrative.

At the end of the day, the lockdown is causing a lot of its own problems, many of which more serious to more people than coronavirus. This should not be underestimated.

 

[menacer]

Wind your neck in, and why the red mist. eh?
you need to get out more! chill .  :kiss2:

Red mist?
Without an app on a mobile phone, its very hard to reply quotes in quotes.
So I opted to change the font colour.
If you'd prefer green I'm sure some mods could oblige. 

Why tell me to wind my neck in, are you one the anti free speech brigade that seem to dislike anything or anyone with a contrarion opinion, or are you a Chinese bot, out to suppress free speech  :ras: :tease:

As for getting out, I'm a key worker, worked throughout this, sometimes 7 days a week,  ( part of a countrywide organisation that's isn't dropping dead like flies and are carrying on regardless with a few "sticking plaster" modifications in the work place)

I've been caving, traveled through out this and stayed overnight outside my family unit shock.
Maybe I'm just blinded by the reality I'm living in, but we do have the lowest incidents in the whole country, I accept that, and I wonder why 

 

[Pete K]

...Its another danger or risk in life, like driving to the club's is an acceptable risk and caving is an acceptable risk..
Why should Covid be any different?...

I would imagine that it is very hard to kill dozens of people behind the wheel or in a cave. It is not just about how an individual accepts the risk to themselves, but how that person feels about potentially transmitting it to others.
if a person travels out stays in an area whilst showing symptoms, that person is likely to do so anyway, any where, whether caving club, supermarket, petrol station
True. It is the people who don't show symptoms that are more of a concern. Anyway, the point I was making was that your comparison between accepting risk when caving or driving when compared to catching or transmitting covid is flawed. For caving / driving you accept the risk to yourselves and maybe some of the small group who may be with you (or could be run over), for the virus you are accepting you risk not only the health of yourself but of countless others you might unwittingly spread it to. I'm not saying don't go out caving or to club huts etc..., I am simply pointing out your comparison is false.

If a person shows no symptoms, the same applies anywhere every day of your life, for ever.
How would they knows they a) had it or b) was the cause of someone else getting it

Open clubs to members at their own risk

Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 springs to mind. I'm pretty sure the club would remain liable and legally responsible for it's duty of care regardless what you get people to sign. Waivers are barely worth the paper they are written on.
How could you prove a person caught Covid and was severely disabled by it or did from it from 1 location.
I doubt you could but I'm not concerned with whether I might personally be prosecuted, I'm more concerned about how I would live with myself if I thought I had been a factor in transmitting the virus to friends and collegues. Again, I'm not saying caving should not happen or to keep clubs shut, I'm addressing your point that risk cannot be ignored by clubs just because some of their members may choose to do so.

We're all grown ups.
You seriously can't be waiting for govn legislation to tell you how to do that safely!

As has been pointed out already, we can wait to establish what we legally need to do and then work out if that can be done in our own club settings.
quite right, with more emphasis on can do not can't do.
If you're uncomfortable with a can do attitude, maybe step aside and allow others to fill the void
I fail to see the point in your last comment other than to insinuate I am somehow responsible for closing caves or holding caving back. You should understand that some people are able to have reasoned debate about a topic and hold opinions without letting those opinions influence their work. All decisions which I am a party to have been made democratically and openly.

Clubs don't have cleaners and employees, they never will.

Which might be something clubs need to do in future if they cannot rely on members to do it.
maybe, between every used glass, cup and utensil and touched surface?
That is why reopening needs careful thought and preparation, not just a sod it and open anyway approach.

Too many people aren't voicing their frustrations at this because the same old feeble politicians come along and silence debate by saying" you might kill granny " etc, that's not good enough.

"I'm alright Jack, pull the ladder up"
I'm pretty frustrated by this whole virus thing. I have had no income since it started and have spent much of the last few months unable to take part in the hobby I love like everyone else. What would be really frustrating is to have gone through all that to see it happen again. I'd accept a bit more personal disruption for some saved lives and keeping us out of a second lockdown.
so, for how long?
I'm guessing you have either savings or furlough money. What will change in 3 months time for you to go to work again and use a caving club.
What are you hoping will change in 6 months time and then a year?
I feel pretty confident that in 1 years time, you could find yourself caving along side someone who is asymptomatic of Covid, but has it, do you lock away everyone now who has a cold, just in case you pass that cold to you're grandma and she dies of pnumonia? 
Sorry, I think you misunderstand my point or I have worded it poorly.
I accept that my personal liberties and hobby may be curtailed for a little longer in order to further reduce the risk to other members of society.

I know people who have died diving, and caving and driving  I don't call for it to be the trump card in an arguement why diving should be closed down. Shit happens.

Again, as tragic as those deaths are, it is very hard for a dead driver / diver / caver to then cause the illness and death of other people on the scale that is possible with the virus.
as far as I'm aware, the original, ground zero family that bought Covid back from Italy on a skiing trip hasn't hasn't been prosecuted, and rightly so to.....

I would never have suggested that they would or even should be culpable in a legal sense. I bet they feel pretty awful about it though.
All am I really reading in these responses are "I'm okay with it so to hell with everyone else" and "they can't prosecute you for it". I struggle with this line of thought as I'm more of the mindset that my actions do impact others and whatever the legal case is, do we not have a moral duty to take care of others as well as ourselves. Regardless of personal view, the law and the guidance is present and must be followed. Where it is not clear then surely it is up to us to ensure we are taking the more robust approach to the safety of club members and not the 'it'll be fine' approach that might (or might not) lead to disaster. I can't wait for clubs to reopen and for caving life to pick up again. I think there is no reason why most club will not be able to reopen in some way. I do think that any club who is considering this must make some very difficult choices and put in place some probably rather unpractical policies, but that is the way it has got to be for now.
----

We had our scheduled CNCC meeting yesterday....

We held our second DCA meeting since lockdown began recently and I can confirm that the state of play in the Peak is very much the same as the Dales. Some caves remain shut because the owner wishes it so. Digging and limited sport caving is going on. DCA have projects teams out capping shafts again. Locals are being liaised with and on the whole, everyone is being very sensible.

yes, those of us who are sensible have continued to work and enjoy life throughout this, without causing Covid spikes or killing our fellow employees ( astonishing I know)
Some sensible people have no doubt died, some have not. Some who ignored advice will have died and others not. Just because the actions of a single person in this time have not (knowingly) resulted in consequences does not mean that all people taking that approach would have resulted in the same outcome.
We do continue to be deeply saddened by the many people around who are losing their jobs, livelihoods, suffered mental health issues, isolation, anxiety, all of which caving clubs provide a daily part in preventing.

 

[Jenny P]

As Pete says:
I can't wait for clubs to reopen and for caving life to pick up again. I think there is no reason why most club will not be able to reopen in some way. I do think that any club who is considering this must make some very difficult choices and put in place some probably rather unpractical policies, but that is the way it has got to be for now.

My own club is in this situation but the fact is that we cannot open our club hut as it is legally classed as a "hostel" and HMG requires these to remain closed at the moment - if we were to open now we would risk prosecution. 

The Club Committee is constantly reviewing the situation and are trying to think in advance how we might be able to manage the situation when we are permitted to re-open, even if it's in a limited way.  In the mean time, like other clubs, we are carrying out essential maintenance and upgrades which can be done by individuals working alone and we have invested in hand sanitiser and antiviral sprays for the use of those who are carrying out work at the hut. 

We are doing the best we can under very difficult circumstances and trying to act in a responsible manner.

 

[owd git]

I see that the PM has indicated hotels can reopen from 4 July.  Could I have a couple of volunteers to help me work our way through what has been said so as to produce some advice for clubs with huts on re-opening?  Please PM me.

I note Bob Mehew didn't ask for a debate on our views. 
I am not a "bot"
I (in construction) am a key worker, not an impatient hero, nor advocate for the Durdle door lemming appreciation society. or whichever really brave type of self advocating club,like the bikers in our village 'Matlock bath' therefore at first hand i see daily what released frustration is like to deal with just trying to walk my dog.
Lastly; a club hut opening is hardly the only way to cave. is it? Another lastly; hut's still have costs, so refunds should possibly only be made to those in need  and unwaged. :ang:
my neck is now re-setting to former length.
P.S. I can walk to several caves , also (forbid) many open mines from home to enjoy at leisure, if i choose. Would I cave with anyone  I cannot trust to have no chance of commination?  answers on a postcard.
O.G. 

 

[A_Northerner]

This is sending my colourblindness into overdrive. I wonder if it will be a rainbow by the time the argument is over?

 

[Pete K]

This is sending my colourblindness into overdrive. I wonder if it will be a rainbow by the time the argument is over?

Apologies. I can record an audio version for you if you wish?

 

[Chocolate fireguard]

I've been caving, traveled through out this and stayed overnight outside my family unit shock.

And now you expect your opinion to be treated seriously and with respect?