Huts re-opening - not quite yet
- Thread starter Bob Mehew
- Start date
menacer
Active member
Chocolate fireguard said:
If you're more inclined to rely on the' science of 'models' than real life occurrences, with real people in real large work places, then you wouldn't be interested in the positive stories and experiencesthat have come from this latest Corona virus.
If you wish to concentrate on all the negatives and none of them positives on how it can, and has already been successfully managed in work place and leisure environments, then move on, there's nothing for you here and that's entirely up to you.
I can't ignore the successful positive outcome within the countrywide company I work for.
It worked.
We're all still alive.
The workplace didn't fall.
The relatives of the workers didn't drop like flies.
Those that were vulnerable'/elderly were furloughed.
Its hard to see why a caving club can't operate similarly.
I can't speak for others but one of my fellow sceptics ( not happy about healthy people being quarantined) also works for a large transport company were they literally share desks, hot bedding on offices of 200 people.
They still have zero cases.
Not one.
In my workplace, one hypochondriac with loads of' health issues" thinks he had it.
No one else caught it.
Yet. .
Its only a matter of time.
Its not going away ever.
But it can be lived with just fine for the majority of people
Bob Mehew
Well-known member
I must correct that statement. The English government's advice is quite clear that hostels can open provides various conditions are meet, as Section 2.1.2 of their guidance states, see https://www.gov.uk/guidance/working-safely-during-coronavirus-covid-19/hotels-and-other-guest-accommodation . I note for example that the YHA are re-opening from 17 July albeit in a phased manner, see https://www.yha.org.uk/covid-19 . Indeed it was the news report of that fact which gave me hope that clubs could do so.Jenny P said:
But it all depends how your club wishes to approach re-opening in adopting flexibility and applying restrictions etc. I accept that the nature of some club huts offer little flexibility so may well end up being only able to let one person or household unit use the place, whilst others with flexibility could get in 5 or indeed more, given camping and motor homes could be used. Though one would be careful to avoid the limitation of meeting more than 6 people by adroit care in where people come together even if it were the same location.
Bob Mehew said:
The problem comes when you look at what is permitted in a "hostel". For example, on 17th. July the YHA are opening only to those who have pre-booked and pre-paid at the very limited number of hostels where there are ensuite rooms and where all reception, cooking and common room facilities will remain closed. In other words, the people staying there in ones, twos or small family groups, must have no contact with any other person or group. (That's why holiday accommodation where one family group can stay in self-contained accommodation by themselves and with no-one else around will be permitted from, I think, July 4th.)
In a caving club hut where we don't have en suite facilities, it is very difficult to see how more than one small group can stay at any one time and we would then have to consider how it is possible to disinfect throughly anything they may have used or touched before anyone else can use it. This might mean that all bedding (i.e. things like mattress covers) has to be taken away and washed before the next user comes in, despite the visitors having their own sleeping bags. (Not sure what the regs. say on this.) You would also have to rely on those staying to disinfect all other spaces they may have used: kitchen, washroom, shower, toilet, etc. when they leave and before anyone else can use the place.
Camping is possible but, for example, the Camping & Caravanning Club are initially opening their club sites but only for those pre-booking and pre-paying and not opening any of the facilities: so no reception, shop, toilets, washrooms, showers, etc. although chemical disposal points will be provided. That makes "camping" at a club hut (if it has the space to do so) very difficult if all shared facilities are effectively out of bounds. C&CC are now suggesting that at some time later in July they may be able to have their toilets, washrooms and showers open but will have to take some out of use (e.g. bar off every other washbasin if there is a rank of them) to limit contact between users and they will also be cleaning the facilities at least 4 times a day.
YHA and Camping & Caravanning Club are large semi-commercial organisations with legal teams to go through the regs. with a fine tooth comb and the money to employ the necessary cleaners to comply with the requirements.
Club huts are run by a bunch of volunteers so we have to do the best we can to think creatively how we might manage - but the complications are endless and, when you come down to it, it isn't necessary to stay in a club hut if you want to go caving. It's immensely frustrating and disappointing and those members running the club will be worried that they may be held responsible if something goes wrong or they are found to have breached some regulation they weren't clear about.
The problem appears to be that anything which involves any shared facilities of any kind are covered by regulations involving endless layers of small print. Add to this that these reglations are constantly being changed or updated so it's very easy to miss something and you have a recipe for confusion. Appreciate that Bob is doing a magnificent job in following every twist and turn of this ever-changing circus and is doing his best to ensure that we are kept informed.
Robert Scott
Member
Carmen - I feel that your presence at CSCC meetings would be an absolute blessing.
Bob Mehew
Well-known member
Jenny
After delving into the detail I recognised some while ago that the real challenge is applying the various constraints to the design of the hut. I previously posted an approach which could be modified to fit many clubs and their huts. As another example, a club could re-open their hut simply by allowing individual camping of groups combined with JUST the use of the toilet which is cleaned by the user after each and every use with materials supplied by the club. (If tents can get onto their property of course.)
By the way, I understand many clubs with huts got a ?10,000 hand out from their local authorities if they were eligible for small business rate relief, see https://www.gov.uk/guidance/check-if-youre-eligible-for-the-coronavirus-small-business-grant-fund . So money should not be an issue. (Has that been mentioned elsewhere?) With that sort of money the club could even hire someone to advise them.
It is up to the club committee to sort things out and make some new rules to permit as much of a re-opening as they feel conformable with. And if they don't feel comfortable with any re-opening, then fair enough. No one responded to my initial request, so I have taken the line that it is not feasible to provide advice from the centre.
What I would like to see is clubs coming forward with their take on how to re-open their hut. What I fear is that most are too afraid to do anything.
PS - the YHA seemed quite happy to book me in at one of their hostels post 17th.
After delving into the detail I recognised some while ago that the real challenge is applying the various constraints to the design of the hut. I previously posted an approach which could be modified to fit many clubs and their huts. As another example, a club could re-open their hut simply by allowing individual camping of groups combined with JUST the use of the toilet which is cleaned by the user after each and every use with materials supplied by the club. (If tents can get onto their property of course.)
By the way, I understand many clubs with huts got a ?10,000 hand out from their local authorities if they were eligible for small business rate relief, see https://www.gov.uk/guidance/check-if-youre-eligible-for-the-coronavirus-small-business-grant-fund . So money should not be an issue. (Has that been mentioned elsewhere?) With that sort of money the club could even hire someone to advise them.
It is up to the club committee to sort things out and make some new rules to permit as much of a re-opening as they feel conformable with. And if they don't feel comfortable with any re-opening, then fair enough. No one responded to my initial request, so I have taken the line that it is not feasible to provide advice from the centre.
What I would like to see is clubs coming forward with their take on how to re-open their hut. What I fear is that most are too afraid to do anything.
PS - the YHA seemed quite happy to book me in at one of their hostels post 17th.
Bob,
Re. PS - the YHA seemed quite happy to book me in at one of their hostels post 17th.
I'm going on the report in the Guardian, which does seem to have researched this fairly thoroughly. It seems that there are around 30 or so YHA Hostels which have single or small family rooms with en suite facilities. Most are in cities, for example YHA Rotherhythe and YHA St. Pancras - both in London - but I think there may be ones in Bristol, Bath, Birmingham, etc. which may also have these facilities and I can think of one countryside one, in Northumberland, which has a couple of double rooms with washroom/shower next door and I'm told Hartington Hall in the Peak District also now has some en suite rooms. However, the majority of the YHA hostels still have bunkrooms and shared toilet/washroom/shower facilities and it's my understanding that these won't be able to open yet. In any case, it seems the shared facilities such as kitchens and communal areas are likely to remain closed for the moment.
I note that a number of hotel chains are advertising that they will soon be open for bookings but I'm not sure how they will be able to organise their restaurants and other shared facilities. Probably there is something in the regulations which covers this but confess I haven't looked up hotels yet.
I suppose we could use some of the ?10,000 local authority handout which clubs have received as "small businesses" to employ cleaning staff so that during the summer we could allow small family groups to book the club hut for their use with one family at a time using the hut. At least that way we would not have to worry quite so much about whether the previous users had really cleaned as they should.
My own club is using some of the money to improve our facilities and doing the work while we aren't able to have visitors. We are also buying new equipment (rather than relying on donations of second-hand fridges, furniture, etc.) so that when we are at last able to re-open properly our members will feel that we haven't wasted the time.
The other problem may be the design of the hut, given that they are very often re-purposed buildings which weren't originally meant to be multi-use hostels. Hence passageways and staircases may be of limited size making any kind of distancing very difficult. Even some of the more recently purpose-built club huts may still have the same constraint on movement.
Guess we're all doing the best we can and trying to think creatively.
Re. PS - the YHA seemed quite happy to book me in at one of their hostels post 17th.
I'm going on the report in the Guardian, which does seem to have researched this fairly thoroughly. It seems that there are around 30 or so YHA Hostels which have single or small family rooms with en suite facilities. Most are in cities, for example YHA Rotherhythe and YHA St. Pancras - both in London - but I think there may be ones in Bristol, Bath, Birmingham, etc. which may also have these facilities and I can think of one countryside one, in Northumberland, which has a couple of double rooms with washroom/shower next door and I'm told Hartington Hall in the Peak District also now has some en suite rooms. However, the majority of the YHA hostels still have bunkrooms and shared toilet/washroom/shower facilities and it's my understanding that these won't be able to open yet. In any case, it seems the shared facilities such as kitchens and communal areas are likely to remain closed for the moment.
I note that a number of hotel chains are advertising that they will soon be open for bookings but I'm not sure how they will be able to organise their restaurants and other shared facilities. Probably there is something in the regulations which covers this but confess I haven't looked up hotels yet.
I suppose we could use some of the ?10,000 local authority handout which clubs have received as "small businesses" to employ cleaning staff so that during the summer we could allow small family groups to book the club hut for their use with one family at a time using the hut. At least that way we would not have to worry quite so much about whether the previous users had really cleaned as they should.
My own club is using some of the money to improve our facilities and doing the work while we aren't able to have visitors. We are also buying new equipment (rather than relying on donations of second-hand fridges, furniture, etc.) so that when we are at last able to re-open properly our members will feel that we haven't wasted the time.
The other problem may be the design of the hut, given that they are very often re-purposed buildings which weren't originally meant to be multi-use hostels. Hence passageways and staircases may be of limited size making any kind of distancing very difficult. Even some of the more recently purpose-built club huts may still have the same constraint on movement.
Guess we're all doing the best we can and trying to think creatively.
Russell Myers
Member
Jenny, your reference to "restaurants" prompted me to reply that from 4th July Restaurants, Pubs, Bars will be allowed to open but don't get too carried away at the thought of a "lock-in", there are a shed load of restrictions such as max number of 30 in the venue, social bubbles, seated service etc etc . I've been working on it all week to help some of my company's clients prepare to re-open. Slightly off piste from the original post but an encouraging sign and close to many cavers hearts. 
pwhole
Well-known member
menacer said:
As membership secretary of my club I can assure you that no-one has asked for their money back, and I don't expect them to - it's hardly a major annual cost and is an investment in the facilities and infrastructure as much as it is an 'access fee' to use the hut. We've had some discussion about the ethics of closing down for now, but we've been pretty solid in support of the policy - or at least no-one's complained. I've actually had four applications or requests about joining since lockdown, and I did tell all those to save their money for now unless they really wanted to pay. In this situation it did seem unfair to charge them for not much benefit.
I can't verify this, but I also doubt that any member's mental health is suffering as a direct result of not being able to use our hut. It's one small facet of a hobby that's temporarily out of action, and there are far more stressful things going on out there that many are dealing with, including no work. I just restarted my current contract after three months of nothing. I'm also one of those cavers who does need the hut to go caving most of the time, but I'm coping OK. I'm missing my friends, but we're keeping in touch, and our underground projects, which occupy most of my caving time, are all on hold, but they're fine, and in one case is digging itself (foresight). There are other things to do in life - well in mine, anyway. There's a hundred other caving-related things can be done other than actually going caving, and in that respect I've never been busier. I'm still answering bloody emails at 23.50.
alastairgott
Well-known member
I have lost a dear friend in the last week, the last time I saw him I shared a whiskey with him from my hip flask, back in March. 10days ago he toasted the solstice with whiskey from a hip flask and then went onto cycle from Leeds to Liverpool. he did not even get chance to fight against the covid.
It is indiscriminate, it kills, everyone that visits the hut is my friend, even if I?ve never met them. I don?t want to kill any more friends.
It is indiscriminate, it kills, everyone that visits the hut is my friend, even if I?ve never met them. I don?t want to kill any more friends.
Looks like excellent and well considered advice. Hut usage is something caving organisations share with other activity organisers. It is a classic example of where our small and volunteer led caving organisation might look to other larger and better resourced organisations for advice rather than using up a lot of volunteer time repeating effort. If it was me I'd go as far as to formalise an arrangement.
I wasn't the one who made the enquiries. The Hostel Warden was the person who did so and he reported back he had been told that our club didn't qualify to be included in the BMC Hut Booking system so we left it at that.
I note that BMC do give useful advice on club huts (I read their online Newsletter) and actually have a section which deals with advising clubs in this respect. Don't know how many BMC-affiliated huts there are compared with BCA member clubs' huts, a lot more I suspect, given their far larger membership and the fact that there are far more climbing areas in Britain than there are caving areas.
I note that BMC do give useful advice on club huts (I read their online Newsletter) and actually have a section which deals with advising clubs in this respect. Don't know how many BMC-affiliated huts there are compared with BCA member clubs' huts, a lot more I suspect, given their far larger membership and the fact that there are far more climbing areas in Britain than there are caving areas.
Yes I think so - apples and pears. I'm trying to say that the advice on huts from the BMC seems generally very useful to those who run caving huts. Duplicating effort in producing that advice seems like a waste of volunteer effort if it is much the same. I'm still unclear what Jenny is talking about but I'm guessing her club tried to use the BMC insurance scheme or something like that.
I don't know how the enquiry to BMC was worded but the intent was to ask if the Orpheus Hut could be included on the list of BMC Huts available for booking. It may be that we weren't eligible because we aren't a BMC member club - it wasn't important so it wasn't pursued.
Having downloaded the recently produced BMC Guidance Reopening Club Huts Booklet version1.pdf this is impressive and covers all you would ever want. Whether or not your club is a BMC member this should probably be required reading for all Hut Wardens.
Having downloaded the recently produced BMC Guidance Reopening Club Huts Booklet version1.pdf this is impressive and covers all you would ever want. Whether or not your club is a BMC member this should probably be required reading for all Hut Wardens.