Huts re-opening - not quite yet

[mikem]

Seems they may all be right - "work remains to be done on how hostels, where there are shared sleeping spaces, can reopen safely, and they will not be ready for 4 July."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/23/easing-of-lockdown-rules-in-england-whats-reopening-on-4-july

 

[pwhole]

If shared sleeping spaces define a hostel, then that is clearly a reason why they cannot re-open yet - people from different households can't sleep in the same room - unless they're in a relationship. Though that's hardly fair on anyone who might have to use the same sleeping space afterwards. If a hut is only used for kit pickup and drop-off and washing-off kit, then maybe it's possible, but it requires social distancing even then, and there's still the issue of cleaning all the shared surfaces afterwards. Kitchens, showers and toilets get even more difficult. We have enough problems trying to get folks to pitch in cleaning the place in normal times (and I am guilty of that too but usually plead bus reasons!), so getting a Covid-19-compliant finish on kitchen surfaces isn't going to be easy if there's several people coming and going in a day. And it's summer at the moment, which makes everything seem easy.

 

[Badlad]

Some huts have opened their tackle stores weeks ago.  Over night use would need to be carefully run and be limited but still possible if there is a will within the club to do so.

 

[Bob Mehew]

Looks to me that some folk are trying to find reasons why caving huts cannot open, rather than finding reasons why they can. 

I don't think that is fair.  It has just taken some hours to figure out that a hostle can re-open if it is run like a hotel and not like a hostel.  The detail is not simple.  But given clubs are businesses, it sounds possible.

 

[Bob Mehew]

Just found https://www.gov.uk/guidance/working-safely-during-coronavirus-covid-19/hotels-and-other-guest-accommodation on advice to hotels.

 

[mrc7cam]

What seems problematic to me is that much of the guidance seems to assume that there will be employees carrying out the cleaning etc and overseeing of the regulations. Also Hostels such as the YHA are keeping their communal areas such as lounges & kitchens closed but how do you enforce that in a caving hut?

In Club Huts who is going to be responsible for overseeing that regulations are adhered too? Also what is the insurance position regarding liability on committee and members for any COVID19 related claims brought against individual clubs? Has the BCA insurer been consulted for example?

 

[maxb727]

Just found https://www.gov.uk/guidance/working-safely-during-coronavirus-covid-19/hotels-and-other-guest-accommodation on advice to hotels.

Section 2.1:

Current government guidance states that private rooms in all indoor accommodation with en suite showering facilities, or one designated shower facility per guest room, will be able to reopen. Shared toilet facilities can also be opened. If shared toilet and shower facilities are in the same room, guests are able to use the toilet but can only use the shower if it is assigned to one household or support bubble or run using a reservation and clean rota. Dormitory rooms will be closed (except where housing parties from the same household or support bubble), as will other indoor shared facilities (e.g. guest kitchens or TV rooms where social distancing cannot be observed).

[emoji2370] places like the YSS might be okay with their many rooms but maybe huts with large dormitories will struggle for now.

 

[Bob Mehew]

It will take a bit of imagination by Club Committees to work out how to apply the guidance.  My outline thought was one household per bunk room & designated toilet plus a small band of cooks working to commercial hygiene standards doing all the cooking and serving as in a restaurant.  People don't need to be employed they just need to accept the committee instructions.  Camping in the grounds may well be a simpler option.  But first and possibly most importantly, how will the neighbours react?

We have also just put up advice on inspection before re-opening, see https://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/doku.php?id=start.

Insurance is no different from existing position and exposure to risks.

 

[Bob Mehew]

One alternative to using an indoor kitchen as source for a restaurant service, is for people to cook outside.  As well as camping, people could use caravans and motor homes.

I also note 2.1.2 item 3 of the government's advice states:

Closing shared sleeping spaces (i.e. dormitory rooms) to any groups, except those travelling within the current government guidance on social mixing outside of household groups.

So there apears to be some wriggle room there.

Also item 5

Taking all possible steps to reduce the risk of transmission in shared shower, changing, and toilet facilities including ... running a reservation and clean process (whereby one household can exclusively book the shared facilities for a fixed time, and the facilities are cleaned thoroughly between reservations).

So a condition of use could be to do the cleaning after use.  (For cleaning see the annex in our advice.)

Clubs need to get a few people together to work out what they can and can't do within the framework of the layout of their hut.  A large committee will just grind itself into the ground doing the detail, though a full committee will need to OK what ever is produced as they will be first in line if someone complains.

 

[pwhole]

Where a hut is located is critical to the calculations really - the TSG is in the middle of a busy honeypot village whereas Red Rose (for example) is literally in the middle of nowhere, so it's hard to compare them directly. But both sets of locals may or may not want activity yet if it means random visitors arriving from different parts of the country. The population of Castleton can't be ignored in our determinations as we operate alongside them. We have a few couples in the club who live together, so they could share a bunk and use a combined shower/toilet together or separately. But no-one else could, if they were to choose to do that, until it was all cleaned down again afterwards. As our showers are normally used after caving, they get muddy, so often get hosed-down first and then cleaned with disinfectant on the contact surfaces. But if the hosing-down blasts virus all over the changing area (as the water spray always does), then that's hardly the answer. So someone has to hand-clean everything, and who's going to do that as a volunteer? You might catch Covid-19 from cleaning down someone else's showering?

We're not panicking over the legal aspect per se, but as volunteers we do have to be aware that we're facilitating a hobby primarily, and that our normal risk-assessments are tilted more toward caving activities and keeping the physical structure of the building safe rather than the implications of delivering a potentially fatal infection to our members and visitors, outside the obvious ones from water pipes, etc. So there's a lot more thought needs to be put into how we implement any new procedures, and what impact they might have on 'normal' hostings, both for us and our neighbours. The local villagers are famously tolerant of late-night (sometimes noisy) revelry at The Chapel, possibly as many will have consumed similar beverages and 'understand'. And I suspect some like our eccentricities and believe we make the place more interesting. But I doubt they would understand that sort of activity right now, so I would imagine that any re-opening for us would have to be very slow and steady, and extremely well-behaved.

 

[maxb727]

What the locals think is important but also you could look at what other hotels etc in the hut area are doing to know what would it wouldn?t work in that area.

It doesn?t make sense to close club huts that have a workable solution if local hotels are open.

I hope that makes sense. I couldn?t quite get my words right.

 

[Bob Mehew]

Where a hut is located is critical to the calculations really

I certainly agree with that and asking them is a good way of finding out / warning them of the change.  Which is why I think the ball is mostly in the club's court. Plus the layout of the hut is critical to deciding how to adapt.  It may well be that club's decide it is too much trouble or the risk is to great.  Let's hope not.

I see the Scottish First Minister has announced re-opening of holiday accommodation from 15 July.  So that leaves the Welsh government to make a decision tomorrow and announce it on Friday.  Let's hope their details will be similar.

 

[alastairgott]

Pwhole and Badlad, I've a confession to make!

I've dismantled the common room and shoved all the miscellaneous stuff into both the members and non members rooms. I've been applying magnolia (the colour that acts best as a magnet for Jelly and haloween fake blood) liberally around the walls and ceiling.

but in the limited amount of time last weekend, I've only got so far... This week I was hoping to get more magnolia on the ceiling of one half of the room and then finish off that half of the room and push everything to the finished half of the room, but was unable to do this last night.

I'm helping my mum this weekend, so it's likely to be delayed further.

Until it's done, we (most likely) wont be opening up the hut to visitors, our tacklemaster is always on hand to make a decision as to whether members can borrow tackle.

Due to the nature of the works to paint the hut a number of our fire exit signs have been pulled from the wall. until these are back in place, the hut really cannot be opened to visitors, as opening the hut to people unfamiliar with the layout and location of fire exits is asking for far more headaches.

I for one, am keen to get the hut open as soon as possible, and will continue to work with our members to ensure this is possible ASAP!

 

[oldboy]

Just found https://www.gov.uk/guidance/working-safely-during-coronavirus-covid-19/hotels-and-other-guest-accommodation on advice to hotels.

The guidance is clear regarding dormitory accommodation and changing rooms
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/working-safely-during-coronavirus-covid-19/hotels-and-other-guest-accommodation#section-2-1
Particular reference should be given to item 2.1.1.2
I.e.  2.1.2 Hostels
Fuller considerations for hostel operators are set out by UKHospitality, but particular consideration should be given to ensuring that hostels operate within the current government guidance on social mixing outside of household groups by:

Taking measures to make reception areas safer, with increased cleaning, keeping the activity time as short as possible and considering the addition of screens between guests and staff
Considering minimising lift usage from reception, and providing clear signage for new lift rules
Closing shared sleeping spaces (i.e. dormitory rooms) to any groups, except those travelling within the current government guidance on social mixing outside of household groups.
Closing other shared facilities:

? communal kitchens, where guests prepare their own food
? other communal areas (e.g. TV rooms) where social distancing can?t be managed within current government guidelines.



Sent from my iPad

 

[alastairgott]

I?m sure there are many ways to ensure that cavers retain social distancing. I?m sure in the fullness of time we may be able to offer some facilities to cavers (even if they aren?t sleeping, cooking or washing).

 

[Bob Mehew]

Closing other shared facilities:

? communal kitchens, where guests prepare their own food

I part repeat

One alternative to using an indoor kitchen as source for a restaurant service, is for people to cook outside. 

You need to think innovatively if you really want to re-open your hut albeit with limitations.  I am aware that one club has already thought their way through the challenges and plans to re-open on 4 July.

Sorry but I have taken a bashing about being risk adverse. 

 

[mikem]

You can have time slots, or only one person / party agrees to do the catering.

Rules are different for private member's club, versus rental out to other groups (although not from a covid19 viewpoint).

Problem is that club huts seem to come in two designs - very few bedrooms, or lots of those, but not sufficient communal space for current requirements!

 

[Pete K]

Sorry but I have taken a bashing about being risk adverse. 

Prioritising safety over convenience is how I would view it. I'd hate to see my club shut down or decimated because an outbreak hit us. A friend of mine died the night before last of corona. He was a caver and member of my club and rescue team. It's still out there and just as lethal. We're fools to rush into something just because we can, when we really need to first consider if we should. Each to their own on choosing to cave again, but those who operate communal facilities must take the highest level of precautionary approach to this virus.
Keep up the good work Bob.

 

[JoshW]

Sorry but I have taken a bashing about being risk adverse. 

Prioritising safety over convenience is how I would view it. I'd hate to see my club shut down or decimated because an outbreak hit us. A friend of mine died the night before last of corona. He was a caver and member of my club and rescue team. It's still out there and just as lethal. We're fools to rush into something just because we can, when we really need to first consider if we should. Each to their own on choosing to cave again, but those who operate communal facilities must take the highest level of precautionary approach to this virus.
Keep up the good work Bob.

100% this. this outbreak isn't nearly over yet, and safety of everyone must take priority!

 

[Bob Mehew]

Off topic I know but

safety of everyone must take priority!

The counter to 'safety must take priority' is I hope you have ceased driving as you are a threat to others in a car.  But the reality is the threat level you present by driving is accepted by all and sundry.  But we have yet to get a coherent acceptance (or rejection) of the threat from the Corona 19 virus.

The probability of death from the virus if you are under 65 is fairly low, to which one has to add the probability of catching it.  I won't bother with numbers but I will claim it is small enough to permit a divided opinion on whether it is an acceptable risk or not.  It obviously is not overly large (like Ebola) or trivially small (like the common cold).  I very much doubt if the virus would significantly impact on a club, assuming the club reasonably represents the population at large.  So I accept that it is not unreasonable for a club to look to re-opening their hut albeit in a manner quite different from normal.  I would also suggest that given the total caving population is around 6000, the chance of overwhelming the NHS is not significant.  And by judicious choice of cave, the risk of needing a rescue minimal. 

So to be positive, one could get a group of mates to drive to a hut in separate cars, chat outdoors when they meet up, sleep in their cars or tents, cook breakfast outside or get a couple of them to cook for every one and another couple to clean the kitchen afterwards plus each individual clean every contact surface in the loo after they use it and every other contact point within the hut they touch.  That will go along way towards minimising the risk of transferring the virus.  I have not tested that outline against the government's criteria but I think it would go a long way to meeting the demands.

What I will reiterate is the need to be confident that a club will not upset its neighbours by re-opening.  That will require care and tact and should be the first consideration.