If the Three Counties were Mont Blanc......

[Badlad]

please don't bash the forum other members just because people don't agree with your minority views.

Fixed that for you, Tim  . mrodoc seems very sensible. Minority or majority views? It really isn't important. This isn't an election or popularity contest.

You appear to have quoted me and then changed what I actually said.  It would be clearer if you just quoted what I actually said not the words you put into my mouth.

 

[BradW]

Sorry Tim.

 

[tony from suffolk]

Remember, the correct approach is - Don't feed the troll.

 

[Kenilworth]

Tim, thank you for your response. I appreciate the fact that you permit dissenting views on your own forum, and out of respect for yourself if not every other user, I want to say that my comments are sincere and as carefully thought out as I can manage. Also to speak before a large audience is evidence of a passion that is admirable, and your delivery was excellent.

Good public speaking also demands logical development of a theme, and an understanding of the questions that theme will raise. The theme of the speech was, essentially: Caves and Caving Deserve Wider Recognition and Participation. For such a speech to be effective it would need to answer the question, "Why?" "Because they don't have it" or "Because mountains do" are not answers. Analogies or illustrations are often crowd-pleasers but they are only successful when they actually support the theme and aid understanding. The analogy in Tim's speech was unfortunately a logical fallacy that did nothing to answer the all-important question, "Why?"

The desire for growth and popularization of caving is finally a psychological question that cannot be resolved in practical terms. All that practical terms can do is indicate the advisability or inadvisability of such growth. In this regard I believe the answer is plain enough.

 

[Stupot]

Wowzeers - Some people really need to take a step back and think about their responses. What's wrong with a well done, regardless of your views. Are we not all cavers who are passionate about our sport?

Tim presented to an audience that I was in and by the reactions around me he 100% put the message across in the best possible way and one that made sense and was logical. Public speaking is hard, terrifying sometimes and to have the guts to do this when knowone is making you or paying you is commendable.

If your sole purpose on forums is to consistently play games with threads in a futile attempt to cause friction then don't. If you have pent up aggression there are plenty on websites specialising in all kinds of weird material (so I have been told). Visit them relieve some tension and come back with possitivity.

Packing for CHECC now where the future of our sport will be training (and a little drinking).

See you there Tim and Jane.

Laters!

 

[Alex]

I am afraid Kelinworth is a troll. Not his reply's here, specifically but he recently called cave rescuers lairs, which is definitely designed to elicit an angry response, especially as many on here including myself are involved in rescues.

Almost every post (including this one) Kelinworth responds with generates arguments, that is the definition of a troll.

By the way great speech.

 

[JasonC]

I think Kenilworth may be a contrarian, which is not (necessarily) the same thing as a troll.

I think he is saying, in response to Tim's excellent speech: "why is it a good thing for people to be encouraged to go caving?".
For cavers, that seems like a stupid question, but I guess his point is that if you really care about caves, then getting loads more people to go down them might not be a great idea - more people=more damage.
To be clear, I'm not saying this is what I think, but I can accept it as a potentially valid viewpoint.

Or maybe, he is just stirring us up 

 

[chunky]

Wowzeers - Some people really need to take a step back and think about their responses. What's wrong with a well done, regardless of your views. Are we not all cavers who are passionate about our sport?

Tim presented to an audience that I was in and by the reactions around me he 100% put the message across in the best possible way and one that made sense and was logical. Public speaking is hard, terrifying sometimes and to have the guts to do this when knowone is making you or paying you is commendable.

If your sole purpose on forums is to consistently play games with threads in a futile attempt to cause friction then don't. If you have pent up aggression there are plenty on websites specialising in all kinds of weird material (so I have been told). Visit them relieve some tension and come back with possitivity.

Packing for CHECC now where the future of our sport will be training (and a little drinking).

See you there Tim and Jane.

Laters!

[emoji106] Couldn't agree with this more.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

 

[Kenilworth]

Yes Jason, that is the question I beleive should have been answered in the speech. I don't want to think it is a stupid question, especially for cavers, but I freely admit that it is a foreign question that many seem uncomfortable with.

 

[BradW]

There's nothing wrong with philosophical and lateral thinking. The more the better. I would challenge the idea that we should cave less, but I do think that the caving world would be a lot better if many had a different mindset when they visit caves. Your motivation will determine what you get out of the visit, how others might benefit from your visit, and what effect your visit will have on the cave. Making a parallel with mountains, without changing that mindset doesn't help. Look what poorly motivated visits to mountains can do to them.

 

[David Rose]

Dear Kenilworth,

Why does it matter if caves are "damaged"?

We all (i hope) want to cave responsibly, not leaving litter and taking care to preserve caves as far as we can. We do this so future generations will be able to enjoy them, and to minimise other possible ill effects such as pollution of a water supply. But even this is not an overarching imperative.

We all die anyway. The planet will one day be consumed by the sun. If it contains fewer stalactites by then, who or what has suffered a loss? The passage of cavers may change a cave's appearance. But by what yardstick could you say that the altered version is "worse"? In fact, most caves will have collapsed or disappeared for other reasons long before the sun becomes a red giant anyway - as almost all caves that have ever existed on Earth already have. Do you mourn these vanished systems which once graced ancient continents?

I'm not being facetious. I'm pointing out that your questions and arguments are derived from an ideological position that you have not taken the trouble to justify. Now is your chance.

 

[Kenilworth]

David,
Now you're asking spiritual questions... and from what I've seen this place won't be very hospitable to such discussion. Nonetheless, I will work on answering over the weekend. I'm leaving for a caving trip in a half-hour, and will not have internet access until Monday. I will post some thoughts in a new thread early next week.

 

[rhychydwr1]

[snip]
David,
Now you're asking spiritual questions... and from what I've seen this place won't be very hospitable to such discussion. Nonetheless, I will work on answering over the weekend. I'm leaving for a caving trip in a half-hour, and will not have internet access until Monday.  [snip]

Thank goodness.

 

[droid]

Why does it matter if caves are "damaged"?

We all (i hope) want to cave responsibly, not leaving litter and taking care to preserve caves as far as we can. We do this so future generations will be able to enjoy them, and to minimise other possible ill effects such as pollution of a water supply. But even this is not an overarching imperative.

Dead right.

The overarching imperative is fun, derived from the activity itself and the joy of exploration.

Cavers pay lip service to 'conservation' (some more than others) but it pales into insignificance compared with 'fun'.

You finally said summat I can agree with, David.
Congratulations 

 

[BradW]

I'm planning a bouldering trip over Stonehenge on Sunday - anyone care to join me? I can stick some fixed aids into the top stones if anyone wants some SRT practice. I'm only doing it for fun. Next year I am thinking of doing some big game hunting. That's fun as well.

 

[mikem]

Yeah, but is Stonehenge worth preserving, surely it's getting in the way of the A303, we've got to have OUR priorities...

Are cave conservation priorities correct, formations will mostly be replaced naturally, but mud deposits may tell us more about prehistory?

Mike

 

[Fulk]

I'm planning a bouldering trip over Stonehenge on Sunday - anyone care to join me? I can stick some fixed aids into the top stones if anyone wants some SRT practice. I'm only doing it for fun. Next year I am thinking of doing some big game hunting. That's fun as well.

Well said. 

You know what? Malham Cove would be a brilliant place for a via ferrata. Or Gordale Scar, there you could incorporate a zip wire.

 

[shotlighter]

I'm planning a bouldering trip over Stonehenge on Sunday - anyone care to join me? I can stick some fixed aids into the top stones if anyone wants some SRT practice. I'm only doing it for fun. Next year I am thinking of doing some big game hunting. That's fun as well.

Well said. 

You know what? Malham Cove would be a brilliant place for a via ferrata. Or Gordale Scar, there you could incorporate a zip wire.

I quite liked that plan in the 80s (IIRC), to turn Gaping Gill in to a show cave, by putting several flights of steel steps down Bar Pot.  :

 

[mikem]

Sounds great, but not in my back yard...

Mike

 

[David Rose]

Thank you Droid. I think you put your finger on it. We're meant to laugh at the idea of using Stonehenge for bouldering - but that's only because a majority of people think it's more "fun" to treat it as a revered ancient monument. (I don't think bouldering would do much harm, actually, especially if no one used chalk.) In any case, Stonhenge has been heavily restored. 200 years ago, it looked very different. Quite a few of the stones have been re-erected after falling over, and some are set in concrete bases. The site has also been heavily excavated. Was that ok? Would using it for bouldering or SRT practice be less "damaging" or intrusive?

As for a via ferrata at Malham or Goredale: currently, the collective majority view seems to be that these are best preserved as places for rock climbing. But the crags are littered with bolts. Some have argued that this represents just as much a "desecration" as building a zipwire or via ferrata.

Once you dig into this subject, it all becomes a lot more problematic. And indeed, relative. I want to keep caves looking good because I'd like myself and also future cavers to continue to have "fun" in them, and the level of fun is greater if we preserve them. I also want us all to be safe, so I support good quality fixed rigging aids. Ie: lots of drilled holes and bits of metal in the rock.

And yes, Droid, we are on the same page.