Insurance for trips

[maxb727]

Hi,

Does anyone have any experience of the following insurance?

True Traveller Insurance for Backpackers and Adventure Travellers

Adventure Travel Insurance to cover single trip, annual multi trip and low cost backpacker cover designed for adventure travellers by The True Traveller.

www.truetraveller.com

or

CoverForYou

Asking for multiple purposes. We have a trip to the Vercor this summer, activities range from and considerations include:

Bottoming the Berger
Family caving trips
Via Ferrata
Mountain biking
General holiday insurance
Long trips 40 days +
Large families requiring insurance

Obviously Snowcard has come up as has the BCA insurance but we specifically want to know if anyone has experience with either (or both) companies listed above.

Thanks

 

[amw]

There is also Dog Tag I haven't used them, although I am told they are OK I normally use Showcard I did use the BCA offering in the early days, John Copper was the administrator from memory? In the time I have taken out insurance I have not had to use it.

Andrew

 

[andrewmcleod]

Hi,

Does anyone have any experience of the following insurance?

True Traveller Insurance for Backpackers and Adventure Travellers

Adventure Travel Insurance to cover single trip, annual multi trip and low cost backpacker cover designed for adventure travellers by The True Traveller.

www.truetraveller.com

or

CoverForYou

Asking for multiple purposes. We have a trip to the Vercor this summer, activities range from and considerations include:

Bottoming the Berger
Family caving trips
Via Ferrata
Mountain biking
General holiday insurance
Long trips 40 days +
Large families requiring insurance

Obviously Snowcard has come up as has the BCA insurance but we specifically want to know if anyone has experience with either (or both) companies listed above.

Thanks

Having read the policy document, it looks like it could be useful for some people if they get the Traveler (preferably the Traveller Plus for a better search and rescue amount) with the Ultimate pack. But it won't cover exploratory caving or expeditions; only covers non-solo caving as part of group.

 

[andrewmcleod]

I am generally recommending people avoid Snowcard for expeditions because a) they are usually more expensive than the BCA cover b) the search and rescue amount is less than for the BCA cover and c) they have some funny wording about expeditions.

From their policy document:
Specialist expeditions
We do not offer expedition cover to either the North or South Poles. All other expeditions to remote regions are subject to individual quotes and require a full detailed submission of the expedition itinerary before the risk is accepted.
Please email your expedition itinerary including guiding arrangements, your experience, emergency provisions and expedition objectives to assistance@snowcard.co.uk

From the FAQ on their website:
For specialist expeditions which are self organised, or exploratory or part of a research project, we will not provide cover unless a full submission regarding the expedition organisation has been agreed by the insurers. We do not normally agree cover for specialist expeditions which are not recreational adventure holidays and normally refer proposals to the insurers of the appropriate organisation or governing sports body.

 

[aricooperdavis]

Having read the policy document, it looks like it could be useful for some people if they get the Traveler (preferably the Traveller Plus for a better search and rescue amount) with the Ultimate pack. But it won't cover exploratory caving or expeditions; only covers non-solo caving as part of group.

The limits on SAR costs for the True Traveller policies are £15k and £25k, whilst the limit on the BCA policy is £150k.

However, a slight quirk of the True Traveller policies is that "the cost of medical evacuation (by the most appropriate transport) for a medical emergency [...] is covered under the main Medical Expenses part of the policy", which has a limit of £10M. I don't know whether evacuation from a cave once you've been found (which is probably the expensive bit) is considered "medical evacuation" or "search and rescue", but I wouldn't want to have to argue it!

 

[ChrisB]

Something else to watch for on medical evacuation is whether there's a condition saying that the insurer must approve the evacuation before it starts or they won't necessarily cover it. I was on a kayaking trip in Greenland where we had a lengthy conversation over satphone at 10pm to do that; it might be more difficult when down a cave. Also means it could be useful for all team members to know each other's insurance arrangements.

 

[andrewmcleod]

The limits on SAR costs for the True Traveller policies are £15k and £25k, whilst the limit on the BCA policy is £150k.

It says 'none', £50k and £100k for the 'True Value', 'Traveller' and 'Traveller Plus' policies in this policy document:

https://www.truetraveller.com/True%20Traveller%20Insurance%20Policy%202023v2%20UK.pdf

£100k matches Snowcard but the BCA remains the best, as you say. £50k is probably more than enough for a Berger rescue but not necessarily for something very deep/miserable/far away.

The thing that might actually have been useful was that they have a policy for non-UK European residents, as the BCA policy is limited to UK residents, but the SAR limits are smaller on that policy (and they don't cover expeditions anyway).

 

[aricooperdavis]

Interesting, that varies hugely from what I'm shown on the website when I stick my details in for a quote. I wonder whether I'm particularly risky, or they haven't updated their website, or they haven't updated their (very up to date) policy wording...?

 

[darren]

Are large SAR amounts needed for caving?

I've no idea how much foreign/expedition rescues cost.

Do cave rescue organisations abroad claim against insurance? Have professionals ever been employed underground on a rescue?

I'm guessing any police/ambulance time might be recouped. Same as ambulance in uk car accidents.

Anyone any knowledge I this area?

 

[aricooperdavis]

Well the classic example is the Riesending rescue where the victim was left to foot the bill for a substantial proportion of the nearly €1M bill.

 

[darren]

Aricooperdavies, I am not being flippant or suggesting anyone doesn't take out insurance.

Your link to an article that states "Westhauser himself is making "a not inconsiderable contribution," the ministry said. “The share corresponds to his income and assets. It would be disproportionate to take full recourse from Westhauser" is not really very helpful. This could be a few thousand euros or tens of thousands depending on his means and assets. It sounds to me like a political statement, deliberately woolly to shut some people up.

It was a serious question posted in good faith trying to understand how costs work abroad.

In the UK we don't have SAR cover assuming the local charitable cave rescue will get us to the surface. The state will get us to hospital and cover hospital bills. The only thing we would pay for is transport home when we leave hospital.

I had assumed that abroad a similar split would happen. Charitable cave rescue got you out the cave but as health care is funded by insurance, your insurance paid for transport to hospital etc.

In the last few weeks I realised I was assuming a lot.

Last big rescue I was involved with abroad was 3/4 days and massive.
The cave was flooded with cavers, obviously. But the outside official presence was also large. Seemed to be a large police mobile contol unit In a marque, outside caters in vans giving free food to people on site.

I had assumed the cavers were unpaid and covered there own transport costs and any loss of earnings, but now I realise I don't know if this is how it works abroad. Do the cavers claim costs?
I had assumed police and state covered their own costs, same as in the UK, but again, why would things be the same.
I'm pretty confident in my belief transport to hospital, treatment and onward travel home are paid for by the insurance.

Does anybody have any knowledge about how costs are apportioned abroad. I do realise different countries may have different systems.

 

[andrewmcleod]

The answer is, as always, it depends.

Some cave rescue teams in Europe are paid I think, and a lot of the mountain rescue teams are.

Reisending was expensive partly because the local authority thing told all the involved agencies they _had_ to charge for everything, supposedly. To go down Reisending now I think you are required to have €150,000 search and rescue cover I think?

I've been told that cave rescue in France is relatively cheap.

I've heard a story about a widow ending up paying or owing a massive amount after their husband died of a heart attack in a large cave. The cave rescue part was cheap but the mountain rescue team that took them down from the entrance charged a lot.

And if you are somewhere actually remote, then it could get very expensive...

 

[Badlad]

It looks impossible to work out what costs are going to be for any accident that occurs on expeditions. I suppose you could have everything from a broken leg at the entrance to a Thai cave flooding incident. I presume that is why such large figures are quoted. As an organiser of many expeditions the main point for me is this.

The insurance cover is not really for the individual insured. It is for the rest of the team. Should an accident happen, the individual is out of it. It is the rest of the team who will have to sort everything out - the casualty is a mate after all. If the insurance cover is inadequate this is a big headache for the team who will have to chip in or at least find a solution in an already stressful situation.

For me there are two things you need from insurance;
1. Absolute certainty that it covers the type of activity the expedition is involved in.
2. That the cover is adequate for all eventualities.

The risk of a serious accident happening is relatively low, but the severity should it happen could be very high and therefore you've got to consider the team. This is my experience anyway.

 

[aricooperdavis]

Aricooperdavies, I am not being flippant or suggesting anyone doesn't take out insurance.

You ask a really valuable question that without the answer to we're unable to make an informed decision about insurance and are at risk of being scalped by insurance companies.

I don't really know anything about this, except I've heard the anecdote about the Reisending rescue, but the details on that are scarce.

 

[Fjell]

It’s telling that there is a correlation between countries that charge for SAR and their ability to enact it.

It’s a given in certain quarters that if you get into trouble somewhere in the world, the only countries with the will to do something are held to be the US, UK, Australia and NZ. If you need rescuing on land or sea out in the sticks my advice is to call Falmouth Coastguard. I jest not. They will initiate a rescue command process. Don’t bother with consuls or embassies. If I am carrying my sat phone, the first number in the phone is Falmouth. They have a duty doctor as well.

A friend about ten miles from me was attacked by pirates. He called Falmouth who contacted a US destroyer who sent a gunship which resolved the situation.

I think I have decided to get an annual policy from Snowbird at the Max level for 60 day trips. It’s about £400 a year. Covers caving and canyoning. It even covers doing the Nose in Yosemite if we felt so inclined… I think £100k is prob OK.

 

[Fjell]

It’s telling that there is a correlation between countries that charge for SAR and their ability to enact it.

It’s a given in certain quarters that if you get into trouble somewhere in the world, the only countries with the will to do something are held to be the US, UK, Australia and NZ. If you need rescuing on land or sea out in the sticks my advice is to call Falmouth Coastguard. I jest not. They will initiate a rescue command process. Don’t bother with consuls or embassies. If I am carrying my sat phone, the first number in the phone is Falmouth. They have a duty doctor as well.

A friend about ten miles from me was attacked by pirates. He called Falmouth who contacted a US destroyer who sent a gunship which resolved the situation.

I think I have decided to get an annual policy from Snowbird at the Max level for 60 day trips. It’s about £400 a year. Covers caving and canyoning. It even covers doing the Nose in Yosemite if we felt so inclined… I think £100k is prob OK.

I should clarify that, I mean the

Falmouth Maritime Rescue Coordination Centre​

Not the local rescue volunteers who call themselves Falmouth Coastguard. Didn’t know they existed.

 

[thehungrytroglobite]

I use snowcard annual multi-trip. Cost me £300 but it's already covered 6 weeks of caving, canyoning and alpine mountaineering. I found the BCA one confusing, complicated, appeared to be very expensive and a lot trickier to get different quotes / less well organised. That's just personal preference though. This was my first year getting insurance so I didn't really know what I was doing lol

 

[ChrisB]

my advice is to call Falmouth Coastguard

Interesting. If you activate a UK registered Personal Locator Beacon, anywhere in the world, it will be reported to the UK Registry, which is Falmouth MRCC. So if you take one abroad, do tell them where you're going so that they don't waste time cross checking or even assume it's a false alarm. Although intended for marine use, they are legal and effective on land in the UK, I don't know about other countries.

 

[Rhys]

I heard anecdotally that Johan Westhauser had to sell his house and will be paying off huge debts for the rest of his life following the rescue from Riesending. Does anyone closer to this know the details?

 

[andrewmcleod]

I use snowcard annual multi-trip. Cost me £300 but it's already covered 6 weeks of caving, canyoning and alpine mountaineering. I found the BCA one confusing, complicated, appeared to be very expensive and a lot trickier to get different quotes / less well organised. That's just personal preference though. This was my first year getting insurance so I didn't really know what I was doing lol

Which level of cover did you get from Snowcard (and what maximum length of trip, remembering that you have to return to the UK between them)? Most people I have spoken to have found the BCA cover cheaper. Snowcard's prices have gone up a lot in the last 5 years, partly because each of the caving categories seems to have jumped up an activity level.

Also (because I am genuinely curious) what did you find confusing about the BCA one? I admit that it's not as flashy and organized as Snowcard which can quote you online, and I've heard plenty of people complain they never got a response to the online form thing (although I always have), but you can get a policy immediately over the phone without too much trouble (and I say that as a person who avoids hates phoning people and avoids it at all costs).

Also also, does anything you have done constitute an organized expedition which they _might_ not cover? I used to use Snowcard (when there wasn't really an alternative) but have stopped doing so because I have no confidence they will cover a caving expedition, based on their policy wording and FAQs.

I just got 3 weeks of European cover from the BCA for about £75, which is not pleasant but not too bad.

Last year I got an annual worldwide (except US, Canada, Caribbean) policy with 45 day limit for just over £240. I'm sure an annual European policy would come in quite a bit cheaper.