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Is it OK to go caving?

Under what circumstances is it OK to go caving now?


  • Total voters
    144

AR

Well-known member
pwhole said:
Funny how no-one ever mentions Putin on the news any more - he's virtually disappeared as a news item these days. Now that's more interesting to me if you're into conspiracies.

Particularly since Moscow came out of lockdown a couple of days back, you'd expect Putin to be trumpeting this to the world but instead the only public statement appears to be from the Mayor....

On the subject of conspiracies Phil, I think you've still got my copy of "Everything Is Under Control" - could you look up what Buckminster-Fuller said conspiriacies, I think it was something about the world being full of small-scale conspiracies that resulted in everything being cocked up.
 

mikem

Well-known member
Governments are full of paranoia, which causes then to suspect conspiracies, when cock ups are a more frequent explanation.
 

pwhole

Well-known member
Oh god - this isn't really about caving! But Putin's appeal is somewhat diminished at the moment I suspect - and his leverage of gas and oil prices may be weakening, as it may be for the Saudis too. Maybe a bunker is the only safe place for him to be, especially as he's approaching the 'high risk' age group.

I was hoping Robert Anton Wilson (and Buckminster Fuller) might get brought up eventually! Prometheus Rising describes the current world scenarios in virtually every chapter and exercise. Still my 'bible' - if I ever need one. Though it has one of the worst covers of all time - which may have been deliberate! Filter No.1:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus_Rising

But as for Fuller mentioned in Everything is Under Control, he quotes the 'Great Pirates' and the acronyms Fuller created to describe their methods and control systems - GRUNCH, LAWCAP and MMAO. He basically points out that Malthusian economics have created and defined a political world that endlessly creates competition and inter-continental sabotage rather than co-operation and joint progress - and leaves a hell of a lot of people in poverty when they shouldn't be. As in, we'd all have the chance of working on the moon by now if they'd stop f*cking everyone over.  I don't have time to type out all the entries right now though ;)
 

JasonC

Well-known member
pwhole said:

What made me laugh about this link was the wikipedia comment "This article may be too technical for most readers to understand."  - no, it's just the fact that it's gold-plated bollocks is why people won't understand it :)

Don't get me wrong, I thoroughly enjoyed the Illuminatus books when I was young and impressionable, but that was long ago....

(Sorry, even further OT)
 

Duncan Price

Active member
The Old Ruminator said:
Mooched about Mendip today looking longingly at cave entrances. Lots of climbers enjoying themselves, Grrrrr.

Along with some cave divers enjoying themselves ? thought I saw you at the top of the Gorge as I was driving home from digging. :)
 

mikem

Well-known member
I thought you were doing a surface tidy up (so neither digging nor diving, although it was spoil from both)?
 

The Old Ruminator

Well-known member
mikem said:
I thought you were doing a surface tidy up (so neither digging nor diving, although it was spoil from both)?

Not me. Was over looking at the huge pile of junk at Fairy Cave Quarry then a walk around Cooks Wood /Stoke Lane area. Lots of little caves around where the holiday complex is being built. My first drive to Mendip since March and went through a ruddy speed camera.
 

Badlad

Administrator
Staff member
As well as a low level of cautious sport caving a number of digs seem to have resumed in the Dales.  I presume everyone is making their own judgement of both the risk and the rules.  I'd be surprised if it was just Dales cavers taking this approach.
 

pwhole

Well-known member
No action that we know of in the Peak District, though it's obviously impossible to truly tell from home.  We haven't started sport caving or digging at the TSG for sure. We've only just started daring to make some hut improvements. Maybe it is just Dales cavers taking this approach ;)
 

Mark Wright

Active member
pwhole said:
No action that we know of in the Peak District, though it's obviously impossible to truly tell from home.  We haven't started sport caving or digging at the TSG for sure. We've only just started daring to make some hut improvements. Maybe it is just Dales cavers taking this approach ;)

The Derbyshire paragliding fraternity are certainly taking to the sky again. I saw a lone hang glider off Bradwell Edge a couple of weeks ago but a pal of mine drove through Castleton on Tuesday and said there were loads of paragliders flying on Rushup Edge.

Mark
 

Fulk

Well-known member
Well, I guess it's in their (paragliders) best interests to keep a social distance of at least 2 metres up there.
 

pwhole

Well-known member
Indeed - you might say it's the perfect activity in these troubled times. Can you unpack and re-pack one on your own?
 

Badlad

Administrator
Staff member
The local paragliders  (Dales) were flying the very next day after lockdown once the national association and private aircraft were allowed again.  Paragliders are quite social up here but no long flights or hitching back from Whitby I guess.  I did hear a top paraglider had died somewhere down south the other weekend RIP.

I do understand why some people don't want to go caving at this time but don't understand why those who do want to, don't, if you get my meaning, or why those who represent cavers aren't at least striving to give cavers the option rather than taking the most negative and restrictive view they can.  My what a long sentence  ;).
 

PeteHall

Moderator
pwhole said:
Maybe it is just Dales cavers taking this approach ;)

Certainly not. I am prepared to stick my neck on the line and admit that I've been underground a few times since travel distance for exercise was relaxed. I know I'm not the only one in Mendip doing the same.

Since I do not live in Wales (despite being 15 minutes from the border, I have not been caving in Wales, though I know of people who live close enough to do so within the rules and are doing so.

I fully respect those who do not feel comfortable going caving at the moment, for whatever reason, but we do still live in a free country where we can make our own choices about the risks we take.

Some people are very risk averse at the best of times, most probably wouldn't consider caving at all. Personally, I don't consider caving to be a particular risk if treated with respect. The same is as true now,  as it always is.
 

pwhole

Well-known member
I'm 'not going caving' not because I'm afraid of the risk - I wouldn't have taken up caving in the first place if that were the case. I'm partly not going caving as I don't drive, and so have to use the bus - and I can't share a car with anyone outside my household - which is everyone. I also have to use the club hut as I don't have a car to put my stuff in while I'm caving, or anywhere to wash it at home as I live in a 2nd floor flat. And the club's in the centre of Castleton and I don't want to piss off the locals, even if it's unjustified. I'm a committee member and our reputation is important. And the hut is a shared space, which means cleaning everything that I touch. Those are the practical aspects - phew. But if the showcaves re-open, it will get interesting.

I'm actually not that worried about catching it myself, which may sound cavalier, and possibly foolish, but most of these things generally just pass by me. Apart from kidney stones (I was in hospital) I've never gone to bed for anything in my life other than sex or sleep.

I'm also not going caving as the only thing I want to do is carry on our projects, and it's impractical at the moment - we can't guarantee anyone's safety if we do them, unless we know we're all either immune or guaranteed negative. We can't pursue either of the main ones without at least four people, and it's far too confined a space in both digs - with a very strong draught outwards in one, and barely any fresh air at all in the other. Both involve sharing each other's spaces to a degree that requires we really like each other, and outside caving would be viewed with bemusement at best. Another is the same with the added thrill of being buried alive. I can't be arsed going to easy caves that I've done a hundred times just so I can say I've been caving - what's the point? There's surface work and following leads to be getting on with if the public transport restrictions relax, and I have plenty of other interests too apart from caving.

Personally, but also as a committee member of DCA, I can't recommend to anyone that it's safe to go caving because I just don't know - nobody does, which is why this thread's at 16 pages now. We're incapable of stopping anyone going caving, but I also don't think we're obliged to encourage folks to go caving either until we know more about the repercussions of doing it in a pandemic. That's not what we're there for. All our local caves are accessible unless stated otherwise - and if the landowner allows access currently, as was negotiated previously in normal times by the DCA in some cases. I don't really understand what 'striving to give them the option' means? They can do what they like - we're not their parents.

Personally speaking, If I were paid a salary, I might put a bit more effort in than I already do to find out the hard science and the deeper implications behind all this, as I would hope that I'd then have some legal protection for possibly giving out the wrong advice, like our comedy government clearly do. But I'm not paid a salary, and I know that what I do, say or write may influence others. I'm not boasting, it's just a fact. But I'm not volunteering to give out potentially lethal advice. Those with the final salary pensions can take that risk.

After the last week's shenanigans in London (and especially today's) I'll be watching the numbers very carefully, as that's far more important to me at the moment than breathing in more radon for no good reason. The parks in Sheffield today were like bloody Glastonbury - they are never normally that full, ever. Many people are really losing the plot at the moment, and the ones who are trying to do what they believe is the right thing (which may not be following current government advice, but being stricter if necessary) could end up getting totally screwed.
 

mikem

Well-known member
"striving to give them the option" just means actually looking for things that are positive indications, rather than emphasizing the negative...
 

pwhole

Well-known member
I'm all for positivity - I hate this situation and I'm desperate to go caving - I'm bored out of my mind and fed up that I can't see most of my friends. But we are in the middle of an international health emergency and potentially on the edge of a recession - I'm hoping I'm just being realistic rather than negative. And trying really hard to not think of myself first, even though it's tempting. But I don't see how caving associations can recommend that it's safe to go caving yet with so little data available.

If you're able to go caving in the middle of nowhere with a friendly landowner then fine - I'm not complaining, though a rescue team might if they get called out to a 24-hour rigging nightmare. We're in a different situation that's potentially a lot more problematic socially, as we have the village and the general public to deal with if we re-open. And I haven't yet seen any evidence at all for how long a virus might last if 'deposited underground', which is fundamentally the issue if resuming caving is encouraged. How many young people go down Giants or Bagshawe in an average summer season? It can be up to 30 a day in good weather. Showcaves can be hundreds a day, and the guides will be at a lot more risk than just radon, especially if they're working there regularly.

Sky News just mentioned that up to 50% of cases may be asymptomatic - which is fine if you're one of them, but not so much if you're not, and you catch it from one of them. I may have had it already for all I know - I was in London for a month during the peak infection rate, sharing an AirBnB with two other guys who have partners and kids at home, and we were working on a shared office building in the city with at least one confirmed case in the building. I've hardly seen anyone since, so whatever happened, it's over now.

Unless I haven't caught it yet of course ;)
 
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