Is it OK to go caving?

[ZombieCake]

Rope is old hat.  The helictites and delicate mud formations may disagree though. (It does seem though that the UV light part of sunlight is your friend for getting rid of microbes on kit)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCWqm_is95s

 

[Russell Myers]

Hi Russell - BCA's latest advice seems a bit obsessed with legal definitions - whether a caving club lending out gear to members is a "business".  The Welsh Statutory Instrument does not help us here - it refers to a "Business" without defiining it.

I'm struggling to find a legal definition of a business in British law.  Can anyone help me?  Here is the American one:
"That which occupies the time, attention, and labor of men for the purpose of a livelihood or profit."  The implication being paid employment (livelihood) in the hope of being paid a wage/salary etc (from gross profit).

This is not dissimilar to our definition of a mine which is an excavation for the purpose of getting minerals for commercial gain by persons employed for the purpose.  So again, there needs to be a livelihood and commerce involved.  So a cave dig cannot be a mine when nobody got paid.  If a Hymac with paid driver was involved, then it still isn't a mine if the excavated minerals (soil etc) were not sold - the objective was not to "get" the minerals, it was to "get rid of" them.

How many caving clubs pay corporation tax and dutifully fill in an annual CT1 return to HMRC?  Hmm, not many.

The other focus of BCA's new statement is washing equipment.  What about BCA doing some drop tests on nylon ropes washed on various programmes (low temperature, fast wash, slow wash etc) various number of times, I'm sure Bob can oblige.  What is the safest washing powder to use?  What about dilute toilet bleach?  Dettol?  Wool pullover detergent?  Fairy Liquid?  No detergent or additives at all?

Good question Stuart (notice where I got that from) By it's political nature, BCA will tend towards legal statements in its updates. After all, we are trying to make legal sense of what the Government is legally imposing on us. Too many "legals" there but I think you'll get my drift. 
The "business" interpretation had us going too but we settled on the fact that Clubs are businesses, in fact any with a hut/hostel/cottage such as mine, pay business rates which seems to settle the matter pretty clearly. It came about from a query into BCA about whether it is legal picking up tackle from a club store etc. Looked at from the public perspective under the current restrictions, it wouldn't be allowed but from the business perspective it takes on a different slant and may well fall into the opening of non-essential businesses on 15th June; in England I hasten to add.
Regarding cleaning kit after use, the default advice is to leave it alone for 72 + hrs and any virus contamination should have been destroyed. We were keen to emphasise the need to be careful about using cleaning agents which may damage equipment especially rope.
I would prefer you asked Bob directly about rope testing and cleaning agents, he's rather busy at the moment.

 

[Stuart France]

Can someone help me with this 72 hours stuff?  Where does the figure come from?  And 72 hours in what circumstances - a dark corner of the shed?

Last month a deputy director of Public Health Wales said in a rather large zoom meeting that I attended:
1) the half-life of the virus is 1-2 minutes in strong sun
2) the half-life of the virus is approx 7 hours indoors on a hard surface like plastic
3) the above comes from lab tests
3) there is (or was at that time) no published peer reviewed research.

You can do the maths for yourself.  Less than 20 minutes in the sun does the same as 72 hours in the shed, if the 72 hours figure is referring to a shed.  I asked PHS for more details by email and none was forthcoming.

Reminds me of an old climbing song:
Now nylon looks pretty when worn on the knees
But remember it melts at 200 degrees
So when you're abseiling the classical way
Remember your nylon might turn into spray
And the spray will refresh you whilst on your rappel
And help you forget that you're going to hell...

So what about baking the rope at say 80C in an oven?  That won't melt it.

Has anyone got a solution (figuratively or literally) to cleaning caving oversuits, especially the nylon weave fabric type?

Again Asda comes to the rescue with various detergents and fabric conditioners, but suits don't emerge like new.

 

[pwhole]

A lo of moulds can be killed quite quickly by exposing them to direct strong sunlight. We noticed that in winter time, as our shaft top never gets sunlight from October to April, the concrete on top goes all browny-green. As soon as the sun comes over the hill it reverts to shiny white again and stays like that until October. I would have thought a quick blast of sunshine would be better than leaving in the dark for 72 hours, though coiled up it won't get even exposure. Viruses generally like caves - many of them hang out there regularly. So I would be trying to 'un-cave' the rope-storage environment as much as possible.

Far easier to just not lend anyone your ropes until we've sorted this out 

 

[mikem]

The virus would have to transfer from the rope to your hand & then to your mouth - an unlikely situation, unless you were caving with someone who was blatantly ill (i.e. coughing, & then you'd still be more likely to catch it directly from them).

72 hours is being on the safe side of how long it was believed to survive on fabrics. You can't guarantee that UV exposure will have got it (it also reduces the life of your rope) & the only one I know of to have failed a drop test (that wasn't known to be damaged) is a rope that was stored on a radiator (so heat also not the best)

 

[PeteHall]

Presumably because there's guidance about cleaning kit after caving this supports the view that caving for clubs and their members is back in business.

A logical conclusion, but I doubt it will be supported in some regions...

 

[MarkS]

Can someone help me with this 72 hours stuff?  Where does the figure come from?  And 72 hours in what circumstances - a dark corner of the shed?

It may be from a study like this one. Figure 1 seems to indicate that 72 hours seems reasonable for most materials.

 

[kay]

What about pineapples or steak tenderizer, essentially we would want to generally knacker the virus's proteins, I think, to render its RNA bomb undeliverable.

What I've picked up (sorry I haven't kept refs) is that to "render the RNA bomb undeliverable" it is sufficient to break down the surrounding fatty layer (and probably easier than knackering proteins) This can be done either with soap or with >60% alcohol. Also that the virus can bind to rough surfaces, and will then die off if it can't replicate, but can't bind to smooth surfaces so stays dormant - hence the early results that it hangs around longer on stainless steel than on cardboard.

What would be the effect of pineapple (or pawpaw) or steak tenderiser on rope?

 

[Bob Mehew]

Stuart Francis asks for a definition of business. 

See the 1994 Value Added Tax Act Chapter 23, Sec 94.? Meaning of ?business? etc.
(1) In this Act ?business? includes any trade, profession or vocation.
(2) Without prejudice to the generality of anything else in this Act, the following are deemed to be the carrying on of a business?
(a) the provision by a club, association or organisation (for a subscription or other consideration) of the facilities or advantages available to its members; and
(b) the admission, for a consideration, of persons to any premises.

Stuart asks about doing some testing on ropes.

Not for some while is the simple answer.  And I expect the manufacturers will have come up with a better answer by the time I am able to even think about a testing program. 

Stuart asks about 3 days isolation.

Because to quote the government

The infection risk from coronavirus (COVID-19) following contamination of the environment decreases over time. It is not yet clear at what point there is no risk. However, studies of other viruses in the same family suggest that, in most circumstances, the risk is likely to be reduced significantly after 72 hours.

see

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-decontamination-in-non-healthcare-settings/covid-19-decontamination-in-non-healthcare-settings

 

[Speleotron]

I would be very careful treating the rope with anything to be honest, even pineapple juice. Damaged ropes are worse for you than covid! Just leaving the rope alone for a the week should do the trick surely?. I'd be far more bothered about breathing in the air of others on your team.

 

[mikem]

The risk to clubs allowing kit to be used is that of being sued. The chances of proving that any piece of kit was instrumental in the transmission of covid19 are infinitesimally small, however, if they didn't have a robust system to prevent cross infection, then they could be found liable. Most businesses will have somebody who's responsible for cleaning or quarantining the equipment, but clubs have to rely on members doing it - which makes proving it was done more difficult.

 

[pwhole]

This is precisely why I raised the point. Our committee is doing basic 'Covid-19 awareness' certification right now, just so we at least have some sort of audit trail that we are doing something, however small, to stay on top of this - at least legally. Washing ropes is probably far less troublesome than sterilising the showers and toilets after every use! I know someone pointed out earlier that being sued as a club is unlikely, but that's usually because dying after a visit is unlikely - or that transmitting a potentially fatal disease to someone else is usually unlikely. Now we don't know.

Testing is the only way to have any real guide as to which way to go. If someone can be proven to have had it and recovered, then they may be able to qualify for some kind of 'passport'. Nationally I mean, not at our club. But recovering isn't a guarantee of further immunity, nor is it a guarantee that you can't still be a spreader. If testing shows that most people still haven't had it, then we need to decide (nationally) what we do about that. We can't just 'live with it' as New Zealand have just officially eradicated it:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/08/new-zealand-abandons-covid-19-restrictions-after-nation-declared-no-cases

There's no way New Zealand will now allow anyone from the UK to enter their country - why would they? If we don't get on top of this fast we could be the only major power whose citizens are unable to travel abroad, and also be unable to receive visitors without them undergoing a two-week quarantine. I quite fancied a trip to France to see a friend, but that's impossible with two week's quarantine there when I arrive (staying where?) and then another two here when I get back (staying where?). Of course, cheap package holidays to Belarus and Brazil may become more popular. When the no-deal Brexit happens they may be the only options left.

 

[mikem]

You can be quarantined at your friend's house (so can see them, but not go out) & return would be at your own home (someone else would have to do your shopping). Not really practical though.

 

[pwhole]

Not much of a holiday either if all we could do is sit indoors and watch TV. I can do that here, and it's in English!

The quarantine at my own home idea is ridiculous, given that I would have taken a plane and/or trains (and passed through their various infrastructures first) to get there. I live on my own, so persuading someone else to do my shopping would be interesting, without cash bribes. Despite what they may say, I seriously doubt that most European governments will be comfortable letting British folk come on holiday if we haven't got on top of this. Spain Italy and France are all coming out of lockdown, so there's a good chance that British holidaymakers could bring it all over again. That'll go down well at the Brexit negotiations - currently online, so nightmarishly difficult anyway without the nudges and winks in darkened corridors that usually help in these matters.

 

[cap n chris]

Could it be a case that it's a bollock useless piece of nonsense?

 

[mikem]

Any particular bit?

 

[Alex]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52968160

It may just be a blip in statistics and obviously deaths are at least a few weeks behind infections, but can we be cautiously optimistic?

 

[mikem]

Saturday & Sunday's figures are not reliable, as many office staff are not in to report them until Monday every week (bank holidays cause an extra blip). Having said that, the average has been dropping consistently since mid April (as has worldwide).

 

[ttxela2]

Presumably because there's guidance about cleaning kit after caving this supports the view that caving for clubs and their members is back in business.

A logical conclusion, but I doubt it will be supported in some regions...

Presumably club trips won't be possible until we get to level 2 on the gov't's 4 level thingy?

 

[mikem]

Are we on level 4 or level 1 now? (Asking for a friend...)