Is it OK to go caving?

[The Old Ruminator]

Many Mendip caves will not be opened until the caving HQ's are free to open. Perhaps that is a reasonable yardstick.

 

[pwhole]

I'm still struggling to see a justification for it starting up again, if we're sticking to the 'policy' of avoiding caving primarily to protect rescuers/landowners/country folk from any inadvertent issues from our actions. That said, it's easy to see many others all enjoying their outdoor hobby, which is frustrating in the extreme, but arguably problems are easier to resolve outdoors. Though a guy was killed climbing at Stoney Middleton the other day, and the Edale MRT had to pick his body off and lower him to the road in full PPE - it was reported as 'challenging' with those restrictions. I was surprised it hadn't been mentioned up here. However, I haven't seen anyone being told off for climbing at the present time, even after this incident:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-52729804

Personally I was a bit confused reading the recent BMC guidance about climbers avoiding particularly sensitive sites, as it seemed to be suggesting ways of getting round the rules where possible, or using other approaches to sites that would be contentious if the regular routes were used. In some places it advised 'going somewhere else', but I didn't see anywhere it said 'do something else'. So if climbers can drive or cycle to a non-contentious but difficult route, fall off and get injured or stuck or maybe even die, get their body recovered (with full PPE by an at-risk team) and then everyone just carries on climbing the next day as though nothing happened, what does this mean? Other than that we're saintly, obviously.

Most climbers will be visiting the countryside from a city, where I guess they would previously have been able to use indoor climbing centres, which are closed. Personally, I think living in the city puts me at far greater risk of infection than someone living in the country, but I would never suggest that country dwellers don't visit the city to avoid them infecting me. We have bigger hospitals for one thing, though that's not much consolation.

 

[mikem]

Body recovery is somewhat easier than a casualty, although less pleasant. Whilst a caving rescue is usually going to involve more people, in closer proximity.

 

[JasonC]

The fact that it's drifting off topic suggests that nobody categorically can say it's acceptable yet.

But nobody ever will say it's acceptable - at least not until everyone's back at work, probably months away.
Particularly if we're using an ill-defined quantity like public opinion amongst locals in caving areas as a yardstick (I'm not saying this is to be ignored, just that it's not measurable).

Personally, I see no reason not to do some caving provided
a) it's a small party, travelling separately, going back home afterwards 
b) it avoids challenging trips, thereby reducing the already small chance of needing rescue to (virtually) zero
c) it avoids parking in a village or walking past a farmhouse to get to,
d) preferably in the evening for increased discretion

- all of which cuts down the options, but surely leaves some chances for responsible caving?

 

[mikem]

& I expect people are, they just aren't making any noise about it.

 

[Mark Wright]

Personally, I see no reason not to do some caving provided
a) it's a small party, travelling separately, going back home afterwards 
b) it avoids challenging trips, thereby reducing the already small chance of needing rescue to (virtually) zero
c) it avoids parking in a village or walking past a farmhouse to get to,
d) preferably in the evening for increased discretion

- all of which cuts down the options, but surely leaves some chances for responsible caving?

The climbing operation John Allen was carrying out earlier this week just prior to his tragic death was what most climbers would consider to be a normal operation. He was rigging a simple 'ab-off'. I worked with John for a good few years and he was very competent with his rope work. In caving terms I suppose the operation was nothing more complex than rigging ropes etc. to go down P8 or Giants.

When you haven't been doing your chosen pastime for a while you'd be surprised how easy it is to forget something and in John's case, with catastrophic consequences.

I was a bit wary when I went out on my motorbike for the first time a week or so ago.

The BHPA always have safety articles in their magazine warning of the dangers of rushing into the summer thermals after a long winter of no flying. Many of the accident and near miss reports in the summer edition of Skywings relate to people making basic mistakes early in the season. The main mistake is usually taking off in the first place. Better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air than being in the air and wishing you were on the ground. I've been there a couple of times. There was a lone hang glider on Bradwell Edge for a couple of hours on Tuesday.

Just be extra extra careful.

Mark

 

[mikem]

A high percentage of climbing accidents, involving experienced participants, are on relatively easy ground, or abseiling, either because they are tired, or not concentrating. Be careful out there!

 

[Ed]

Guess we can go to the Co. Durham caves now - upper Teesdale (northern Bank) and Weardale

 

[pwhole]

This just in:

https://www.thewestonmercury.co.uk/news/outbreak-of-coronavirus-at-weston-general-hospital-1-6669079

The decision to take this step has been clinically-led, and is supported by partners across the wider Bristol, North Somerset and South Gloucestershire (BNSSG) health and care system.

Dr William Oldfield, medical director at UHBW, said: ?As with any hospital, the number of patients with Covid-19 will frequently change as people are admitted and discharged.

?We currently have a high number of patients with Covid-19 in Weston General Hospital.

?Whilst the vast majority will have come into the hospital with Covid-19, as an extra precaution we have taken the proactive step to temporarily stop accepting new patients to maintain patient and staff safety.

 

[mikem]

Their A&E department never recovered from the problems that have caused it to be shut down overnight since 2017.

 

[pwhole]

Indeed - but if this spike is shown to be from last weekend's beach revelries, then it would seem to suggest that the likelihood of infection outdoors is much higher in large groups - and that another lockdown may result, rather than a further loosening. It also seems from what I'm hearing that some climbing venues around here are pretty busy, with some camping overnight to get the best spot in the morning, which hardly seems to be following the spirit of the guidance, especially if folk are sharing tents. I'd love to check, but I'm still trying to observe the travel restrictions for non-drivers and non-cyclists - i.e. no travel at all for fun, except walking. But at least I'm clean, both physically and spiritually. Unlike some of our 'betters'. Johnson looks like he hasn't slept in a week. Good.

 

[Fjell]

8 million kids are going back to school soon, because there is no alternative. That will dwarf any Impact from running around outside. You cannot screw up these kids lives to save the old folks. People will just have to suck it up and do better managing it.
.

 

[mikem]

As testing is finally catching up, it's more likely that they've just discovered that it spreads through hospitals just as easily as it did care homes, rather than these being new admissions.

 

[The Old Ruminator]

Just back from Bristol on the motorway. About 15 high powered racing cars hurtled past at a huge speed. I was doing 80. Ruddy free for all on motorways now. I am not sure Weston hospital closed due to a " spike " in cases. Just that numbers of patients with possible or more minor symptoms built up to a level the hospital felt better not to admit any more. As far as I know nearby Taunton still has plenty of capacity. I have seen all the current graphs etc for Somerset. Our mortality rate is %2 above the previous 5 year average.

 

[mikem]

Is that for May, first 5 months, or whole year?

 

[The Old Ruminator]

Figures quoted are from 20th March to 5th May, Mike. %2 above the normal rate across that timescale.

 

[Duck ditch]

Go caving fjell.  Before you lose any more of your moral integrity.  Let the old people and everybody who?s dealing with this virus suck it up for you. Thanks for your 9 weeks of patience well done. 

 

[The Old Ruminator]

Darn. Still no mention of Caving Club Huts today.

"  ?But because of the progress we are making I can, with confidence, put the British people on notice of the changes we intend to introduce as we move to step two.?

From June 1, outdoor markets and car showrooms will be allowed to open, provided they can do so safely.

He said: ?We know that the transmission of the virus is lower outdoors and that it is easier to follow Covid secure guidelines in open spaces.?

From June 15, ?all other non-essential retail? will be allowed to reopen, contingent on progress in the fight against coronavirus and if the businesses are ?Covid secure?.

 

[Fjell]

Go caving fjell.  Before you lose any more of your moral integrity.  Let the old people and everybody who?s dealing with this virus suck it up for you. Thanks for your 9 weeks of patience well done.

I have kids at uni (which includes medical placements) and kids waiting to go back to school. We have 4 parents in their 80?s and 90?s who will very likely to die if they get it. All of which we are holding up and managing. I might even die of it, which will be an organisational issue for sure.
The point is we need to move on and stop wittering about non-issues. There is a risk of is dying of it, but so what. Caving is very light relief from reality.

 

[Duck ditch]

You have more reasons to be patient than me fjell.  Maybe we as a country have done enough.  Hope so.