cap n chris
Well-known member
Hi Madness; hold your breath - yes - as I understand things this is being looked at. It may take a while but hold your breath!...
lancaster h
- Thread starter todcaver
- Start date
Alex said:
Seem to recall that some regional bodies impose a one year probationary period on new clubs so newly established clubs sometimes have wait patiently for a year before they can be recognised by other regional bodies to get permits. A twelve month wait would make a couple of weeks old fashioned wait for a permit look postively speedy!
to numb7s , yes I started this to find out the access details after watching a vid which stated it was locked - my last post was to say that only club members have caused most the wear and / damage over the last 20 years !??? ??
my latest query is - is terms like governing body just another term for saying
( I own this country and all that lies beneath it ! )
my latest query is - is terms like governing body just another term for saying
( I own this country and all that lies beneath it ! )
Pitlamp
Well-known member
MJenkinson said:
Sorry MJenkinson - I've been away in the Peak District caving and only just seen your question. However, Cavematt has already answered it in his post above. I have to say that his contribution is very well put and it's encouraging that people like him are doing the jobs they are for us. I agree with every word.
With a few exceptions this topic has been very positive since Cavematt set the record straight. One is reminded of that expression "Give peace a chance". These volunteers in CNCC are working very hard to make progress on amicable access improvements and some of the results have been outstanding lately. (I'm thinking of the new Fountains Fell arrangements here.) None of us should undermine this excellent work.
Simon Wilson
New member
Last year there was a special CNCC meeting to discuss CRoW and it has been discussed at several meetings since then. The meetings have all been quite harmonious and I think it is fair to say that there has been a great deal of agreement. I think nobody who was at those meetings will disagree with me when I say that the unanimous view throughout has been that developing and maintaining good relations with landowners is paramount. I think that we could and should make that more widely known since it appears to have been missed by some people.
The CNCC operates several permit systems and obviously the CNCC line has to be that cavers should for the time being use the current system of access. I hope it is also obvious that I am a keen supporter of the CNCC. There is no conflict between anything I have said in this thread and what Matt had to say.
There are CNCC permit systems but above them there is the law. A large number of people have campaigned very hard for over a century to gain legal rights of access to the countryside and we would be letting them down if we did not take advantage of the rights that they have won for us. I am aware that I keep repeating myself but I do find that I feel the need to keep reminding people what rights of access we have.
You might choose to apply for a permit but you also have a legal right to go down Lancaster Hole without it requiring a permit. If you accept what DEFRA says then we have the right to go at least as far as somewhere near to the bottom of the entrance pitch. But DEFRA are unwilling to say exactly how far they think you are allowed to go which really leaves it up to you to decide where DEFRA's limit might be.
On the other hand you might not accept what DEFRA says in which case you might choose to go caving at will on access land. That is what many (probably most) northern cavers have been doing for the last decade and I have no reason to believe that any landowner is the least bit bothered. It would appear that caving under the CRoW Act is already established as part of the current system of access.
The CNCC operates several permit systems and obviously the CNCC line has to be that cavers should for the time being use the current system of access. I hope it is also obvious that I am a keen supporter of the CNCC. There is no conflict between anything I have said in this thread and what Matt had to say.
There are CNCC permit systems but above them there is the law. A large number of people have campaigned very hard for over a century to gain legal rights of access to the countryside and we would be letting them down if we did not take advantage of the rights that they have won for us. I am aware that I keep repeating myself but I do find that I feel the need to keep reminding people what rights of access we have.
You might choose to apply for a permit but you also have a legal right to go down Lancaster Hole without it requiring a permit. If you accept what DEFRA says then we have the right to go at least as far as somewhere near to the bottom of the entrance pitch. But DEFRA are unwilling to say exactly how far they think you are allowed to go which really leaves it up to you to decide where DEFRA's limit might be.
On the other hand you might not accept what DEFRA says in which case you might choose to go caving at will on access land. That is what many (probably most) northern cavers have been doing for the last decade and I have no reason to believe that any landowner is the least bit bothered. It would appear that caving under the CRoW Act is already established as part of the current system of access.
Pitlamp
Well-known member
Thanks for your most recent post above Simon. It's well written and very reasonable.
The only real issue (I think at least) is that your second and last paragraph contradict each other. It's difficult to reconcile encouragement to ignore the access system (which the caving community & land owners have agreed amicably) with the statement about supporting CNCC.
But let's not fall out about that; it'd be good to have a beer some time and chat about this. You're obviously capable of very clear thinking and you're extremely articulate - and I'm always willing to change my mind if the evidence is compelling. Or there's always the option of exchanging PMs of course.
The only real issue (I think at least) is that your second and last paragraph contradict each other. It's difficult to reconcile encouragement to ignore the access system (which the caving community & land owners have agreed amicably) with the statement about supporting CNCC.
But let's not fall out about that; it'd be good to have a beer some time and chat about this. You're obviously capable of very clear thinking and you're extremely articulate - and I'm always willing to change my mind if the evidence is compelling. Or there's always the option of exchanging PMs of course.
jasonbirder
Member
Given its extreme popularity...it'd be VERY interesting to know how many permits were issued for the Lancaster-Easegill system in a typical year...
jasonbirder
Member
More than I thought...but would imply if you had NO mid-week trips at all even over the summer holidays...just weekends & Bank Holidays...(112 days) and no-digging trips at that there are about 2 parties in the whole system each saturday, sunday and bank holiday monday...
Which seems strange!
Which seems strange!
I may be able to offer a small insight on these figures.
As part of a wider project to assess the numbers of cavers, active or otherwise, and their value to the rural economy I have studied all the published permit figures. Unfortunately the number of permits issued does not relate to numbers of cavers or even number of trips. Some clubs 'block book' permits, or book 'just in case' and many of these are never used. In addition there are people, for better or worse, who cave outside the permit system. A number of 'on site' assessments over a period of two years suggests that 'pirating' or 'trespass' or CRoW' trips amount to over 50% of those that actually take place.
The permit system does satisfy a perceived requirement for the landowners to have a record of who is caving on their land, but this is hardly an honest approach and does not serve the long term interests of either cavers or landowners. The CNCC realise a change in approach is necessary and are looking forward so that a better solution is found which works for all.
As part of a wider project to assess the numbers of cavers, active or otherwise, and their value to the rural economy I have studied all the published permit figures. Unfortunately the number of permits issued does not relate to numbers of cavers or even number of trips. Some clubs 'block book' permits, or book 'just in case' and many of these are never used. In addition there are people, for better or worse, who cave outside the permit system. A number of 'on site' assessments over a period of two years suggests that 'pirating' or 'trespass' or CRoW' trips amount to over 50% of those that actually take place.
The permit system does satisfy a perceived requirement for the landowners to have a record of who is caving on their land, but this is hardly an honest approach and does not serve the long term interests of either cavers or landowners. The CNCC realise a change in approach is necessary and are looking forward so that a better solution is found which works for all.
Simon Wilson
New member
Pitlamp said:
I am not encouraging people to ignore 'the access system'. I am pointing out that 'the access system' now includes the rights of access under the CRoW Act. The CRoW Act has been in place for ten years now, the landowners have become used to it and it has changed things dramatically. Some people have not realised yet quite how much and how fundamentally it has changed things.
I notice that your club, the NPC, have applied to become a CNCC committee member. You clearly have some very strong political views that you are keen to express, particularly about the CNCC. I hope to see you at the CNCC and listen to you take part in the debates.
Pitlamp
Well-known member
Thanks Simon; you've not convinced me (so far) that your opinion is right I'm afraid. But I'm not going to labour the point here.
It's likely to be the NPC Secretary who attends CNCC meetings, according to what I heard on Saturday. I'll look forward to the feedback we get from this. I doubt there will be any strong political views expressed; we just want to go caving and as long as the permits keep coming everyone's happy.
It's likely to be the NPC Secretary who attends CNCC meetings, according to what I heard on Saturday. I'll look forward to the feedback we get from this. I doubt there will be any strong political views expressed; we just want to go caving and as long as the permits keep coming everyone's happy.