Lifelining - what are you're thoughts.

[Hammy]

IMHO there are some seriously dangerous approaches to caving being aired here.....

:shock:

 

[Stu]

If someone needlessly falls off a ladder/ladder breaks because of no lifeline then yes they are; to those with them and the people who risk having to come in to get the casualty.

Read Race Against Time... Mr Eyres has a few things to say about people who ladder with no lifeline.

For goodness sake, lighten up.

Where did I say I never used a line?

You didn't; though you made a heavily loaded statement to that affect i.e.

"Perhaps I'll just give up caving then. I am clearly a danger to myself and others."

There was an air of "it's a man's world and if you're not man enough... safety bah humbug etc".

The inference was you are a danger because you don't. I couldn't give a toss if you do or don't. If you ladder you should lifeline, no matter how small the pitch.

If I don't lighten up will I break the ladder.......

 

[Stu]

Blimey... this has gone wildly OT. Sorry.

 

[Peter Burgess]

you made a heavily loaded statement

No, I didn't, actually.

As this is going a bit off topic, I have started a new one.

 

[Andy Sparrow]

What are you going to attach that line to. A lamp belt isn't considered to be PPE so in theory they all need at least a harness.

This is true, but as long as belts are made from industrially stitched 2 inch webbing they remain the most practical way to connect a lifeline for a short pitch/climb. I wouldn't stop using them for this purpose anymore than I would stop gripping the cave with my hands due to a lack of having CE marked fingers. In reality cavers are not going to routinely use harnesses for short isolated ladder pitches - they will just revert to bowlines round the waist. Of course there are limitations in the use of belts - shockloads must not happen, neither must prolonged suspension.

 

[Langthwaite Pot]

This is true, but as long as belts are made from industrially stitched 2 inch webbing they remain the most practical way to connect a lifeline for a short pitch/climb. I wouldn't stop using them for this purpose anymore than I would stop gripping the cave with my hands due to a lack of having CE marked fingers. In reality cavers are not going to routinely use harnesses for short isolated ladder pitches - they will just revert to bowlines round the waist. Of course there are limitations in the use of belts - shockloads must not happen, neither must prolonged suspension.

:shock: Well said.

 

[AndyF]

Ladders have their place still..

£50 (ok. maybe £20) says an average party arriving at Garlands can ladder up and down the pitch faster than the same size SRT party....

In fact, a small party could probably get down and up before an SRT party has managed to put their gear on....!

I use ladders and SRT, each has an advantage in certain situations. I'll often choose ladders for tight pitches, or hading pitches at 10-15 degrees, where a ladder can avoid excesive rebelaying. I can think of one or two pitches that are simply not properly SRT riggable.

Ladders are also good for novices, giving added safety and building confidence on exposed situations.

 

[Dep]

AndyF
In fact, a small party could probably get down and up before an SRT
party has managed to put their gear on....!
I use ladders and SRT, each has an advantage in certain situations.

I agree. We have one prtaicular site with a 55foot shaft, concrete pipes about 2'6" diameter, it's confined at the top so not that easy to lifeline someone as you get in each other's way. Last time I thought I would be clever and run it as an SRT trip to save time - haha! Never again!

Ladders definitely have their uses, and with a lifeline and belt (and self-lining on the ladder) I see no real risk, no single point of failure can cause a fall.

 

[Katie]

Just reading this topic has started me wondering how people on this forum feel about fixed ladders and there risks especailly the ones already missing rungs!
What do people feel about the dangers of fixed ladders?

 

[gus horsley]

Just reading this topic has started me wondering how people on this forum feel about fixed ladders and there risks especailly the ones already missing rungs!
What do people feel about the dangers of fixed ladders?

I'm always very wary about fixed anything. Mind you I do weigh considerably more than the average caver which I found out once when I tested a fixed rope in Wheal Bellan and it came whanging down the shaft accompanied by a loud crack and a rotten stemple. And I remember doing a through trip from County Pot to Lancaster Hole eons ago when the fixed ladder at Stop Pot decided to slide sideways when a mate ascended it. And when it comes to mine ladders installed a hundred years ago...

 

[epik]

Are ladders classed as PPE and CE-marked? I know C-links got phased out as being too dangerous, but I bet there are still a lot of old ladders in circulation which have them. What would happen if someone was hurt using such a ladder (by the C-link failing)?

Mark

Just out of interest as far as im aware (was a couple of years ago) no caving gear has to be CE marked as caving is classed as progression and CE marks cover work at height and falls from height (ie where a shock load occurs) in caving no shock load should occur as your never above your gear! Alot of kit does have CE marks but thats becasue they also sell to climbers - the caving CE mark for helmets was written by petzl as one didnt exist and they wanted a CE mark on the Ecrin Best which you'll notice has a smaller gap between craddle and shell than the normal ecrin!

Think of that next time you put on your SRT harness and i hope you feel safe hanging 300ft up!

 

[Les W]

Just out of interest as far as im aware (was a couple of years ago) no caving gear has to be CE marked as caving is classed as progression and CE marks cover work at height and falls from height

It was my understanding that anything retailed within the EU was required to have a CE mark.
CE marks only show that the product conforms to the relevant saftey standards for that product type.

Not all CE marks are about shock loading etc. (eg Tv's, Games consoles, electric kettles etc. etc.)

Caving kit offered for retail sale in the EU should be CE approved
(I think that a loophole in the law is that if you commision something to be produced it is then outside the CE requirements)

Nick Williams is the man to ask about CE marks!

 

[AndyF]

Caving kit offered for retail sale in the EU should be CE approved
(I think that a loophole in the law is that if you commision something to be produced it is then outside the CE requirements)

CE essentially means that an item conforms to any EU regulations the relate to it. Thus a power tool complies to electrical directives, a bike complies to cycle directives.

If there are no directives, then you can slap CE on and be o.k.!!

I don't know if there are any explicit caving directives, I doubt it...

Often , you don't actually have to have an item tested. You simply write an assesment and present that to anyone who asks.

 

[epik]

It was my understanding that anything retailed within the EU was required to have a CE mark.
CE marks only show that the product conforms to the relevant saftey standards for that product type.

No a CE mark as has been mentioned shows it complies to teh relevant EU standard, if there is no standard then no CE mark can be used unless you write a standard which is accepted by the powers that be - as petzl did!

I think you will find if you go to the shops clothing, trainers, gloves, caving gear, etc etc etc don't have CE marks. Alot of stuff isnt covered under CE! Also if it is cat 3 PPE it is self regulating so the manufacturer is advised to opt in but has no commitment to test any of there kit!

Cat 3 is things that failure would not cause clear danger to life and would only cause discomfort - gaiters and gloves are cat 3 PPE!

Cat 2 i think is where failure can cause death so i guess helmets would classify as that though its a bit of a grey middle cat grade.

Cat 1 is it will kill you if it fails so ropes would be this i guess!