Lifelining - what are you're thoughts.

[gus horsley]

When I was a lad we had a rope ladder snap on the entrance pitch into Calf Holes. The belayer got rope burns but otherwise no other casualties. I'm glad those things got replaced by electron ladders, they weighed a ton when they were wet.

 

[jasonbirder]

Electron Ladders can snap!!! Blimey...they're enough of a menace to me when they're in one piece...

 

[Brains]

'fraid so, probably best to assume there are two types of ladder, those that have snapped, and those that are going to!
Of course, it has been known for people to protect their ladders by not using them and trying to levitate instead... The ones that werent lined (and a few that were) are likely to be found amongst the rescue notes :shock:

 

[cap n chris]

Electron Ladders can snap!!! Blimey...they're enough of a menace to me when they're in one piece...

To say it was surprising to see my two year old (from new) ladder snap is a bit of an understatement. I hope my new one lasts a bit longer.

 

[Dave H]

I've not seen a ladder snap, but I've had rungs slip and seen 'safe' natural belays let go. So I never normally climb a ladder without a lifeline.

Had a funny incedent a few years ago involving a ladder. A couple of mates went down the slippery rift near the Gin entrance of Carlswalk. The way out to the lower entrance was sumped so after a few minutes in the water they attempted to climb out, but with no success. Luckily I had a ladder with me, and droped an end down to them. I couldn't find a belay for the ladder, so I just jammed myself in and held onto the top rung. With no way for me to control a lifeline they just had to climb the ladder without one. Both expressed an opinion about the springyness of the ladder, but neither noticed the 'belay' until I asked one of the to roll the ladder for me. The look on their faces was priceless

 

[MSD]

I've had a ladder break too. Well, I was lifelining when it broke. The person on the ladder was pretty happy to have a lifeline.

It was teh C-link which broke and since the ladder was belayed to a simple tether (as opposed to a spreader) the entire ladder disappeared down the pitch. If you absolutely must climb a ladder with no lifeline, I suppose it's a bit safer if each side of the ladder is belayed independentl. But it's a bad idea in any case.

Mark

 

[Fred]

I too have had a ladder break on me and was bloody grateful for the lifeline. I was the last one to ascend a 55ft pitch on the way out and the lower, 2nd ladder, failed when I was virtually at the join between the 2 ladders. Both wires snapped where they exited from swages at the base of the eyelets (an obvious failure point I guess - maybe poor storage - don't know not my ladders). Fortunately 2 of the party had SRT kit so slid a rig down to me and I simply prussiked out. The seriousness of the incident didn't really hit me till later in the pub.

 

[twllddu]

Been on one ladder when it snapped on one side on a 30' pitch, as I was about three quarters of the way up I made a bolt for the top. Several beers were had after that.

Also been present when another ladder snapped on the first pitch of County with the climber being deposited on to the floor with thankfully no injuries.

It can be a pain carrying a rope for a short pitch, but not as much as the pain you could experience without one.

 

[MSD]

Well....it seems that a ladder breaking is more common than I realised. Based on the experiences reported here I think we can pretty much agree that using a lifeline with a ladder is a good idea, regardless of how experienced the climber is.

Are ladders classed as PPE and CE-marked? I know C-links got phased out as being too dangerous, but I bet there are still a lot of old ladders in circulation which have them. What would happen if someone was hurt using such a ladder (by the C-link failing)?

Mark

 

[cap n chris]

You guessed right - ladders are not PPE* or CE marked.

* It says on the documentation "Ladders with flexible sides are not personal protective equipment. If a climber lets go they will fall off". :roll: Hmm, glad that's cleared up, then.


Perhaps one of the reasons why ladders tend to break at or near the C-links/swages is because it is VERY COMMON to see people pack the ladder into a neat roll and then bend the ends of the ladder around and clip the two C-links together to hold everything firmly in place. This is specifically ADVISED AGAINST in manufacturer's documentation.

... not a lot of cavers know that!

 

[AndyF]

Are ladders classed as PPE and CE-marked? I know C-links got phased out as being too dangerous, but I bet there are still a lot of old ladders in circulation which have them. What would happen if someone was hurt using such a ladder (by the C-link failing)?

Mark

Shows how dated I am -- er.... what has replaced C-links these days?

I haven't seen a "new" ladder for years....

 

[Brains]

baby maillons have replaced the c links, but the ladders arent ppe - they form no structural part of the system. The ladder should be completly redundent to all parts of the system save actually climbing it, and that should have an alternate hauling syetm already thought out and practised.
Laddrers, work of the devil lad, just let em lie, let em lie
It is only those backward types that only have small pitches that think they are still usefull, at the risk of opening an old sore have not ladders hurt more people than stops :twisted:

 

[Peter Burgess]

At the risk of tempting fate, in 27 years I have never fallen off a ladder and I have never witnessed a ladder breaking. All ladders, like ropes, should be inspected frequently for signs of deterioration - such as rusty strands. Any ladder that has been subjected to abnormal loadings should also be treated with caution and inspected carefully.

Ladders have their place. What's the point of every caver getting out a load of ironmongery every time they want to drop a 20 ft entrance pitch, for which one ladder and line are perfectly adequate?

 

[emgee]

At the risk of tempting fate, in 27 years I have never fallen off a ladder and I have never witnessed a ladder breaking. All ladders, like ropes, should be inspected frequently for signs of deterioration - such as rusty strands. Any ladder that has been subjected to abnormal loadings should also be treated with caution and inspected carefully.

Ladders have their place. What's the point of every caver getting out a load of ironmongery every time they want to drop a 20 ft entrance pitch, for which one ladder and line are perfectly adequate?

What are you going to attach that line to. A lamp belt isn't considered to be PPE so in theory they all need at least a harness.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Perhaps I'll just give up caving then. I am clearly a danger to myself and others.

 

[kay]

Ladders have their place. What's the point of every caver getting out a load of ironmongery every time they want to drop a 20 ft entrance pitch, for which one ladder and line are perfectly adequate?

From my point of view - if I am being lifelined on a ladder and I make a mistake, I'm probably still OK. If I make a mistake while SRT-ing, I'm dished.

 

[Stu]

Perhaps I'll just give up caving then. I am clearly a danger to myself and others.

If someone needlessly falls off a ladder/ladder breaks because of no lifeline then yes they are; to those with them and the people who risk having to come in to get the casualty.

Read Race Against Time... Mr Eyres has a few things to say about people who ladder with no lifeline.

 

[MSD]

It might seem strange, but I like caving with ladders. Since the main reason for going caving is to have fun, I see no reason not to do a ladder trip now and again. And I don't mean a 20 ft entrance pitch, I mean a REAL ladder trip with a team of 10 and a massive pile of tackle.

I guess it's the social aspect which I enjoy with caving on ladders. On an expedition you can prussik hundreds of metres and the only words you might exchange are "pitch free". With a big ladder trip you need a well-organised team and you have to work together if everything is to go smoothly and safely. I think the fact that SRT has "tamed" so many vertical caves is also a factor. Let's be honest, going down Lost Johns on SRT is a stroll, but doing it safely on ladders in a reasonable time is (to me) an enjoyable challenge.

I agree ladders have been responsible for many accidents, but if you look at the statistics, most of these occur on short pitches, usually being climbed with no lifeline. Another factor was that many ladder pitchers were traditionally rigged in the path of the water. That can't be completely avoided, but "ladder revivals" are rare enough occurences to be able to choose a dry day!

Anyway, nobody is forcing anybody to use ladders. Take them or leave them as you fancy.

Mark

 

[Dave H]

Anyone want to buy 20 ladders :?:
Only 20-30 years old
Hardly used on 360' pitches
None broken - yet

At least they last longer than ropes! ldgit:

 

[Peter Burgess]

If someone needlessly falls off a ladder/ladder breaks because of no lifeline then yes they are; to those with them and the people who risk having to come in to get the casualty.

Read Race Against Time... Mr Eyres has a few things to say about people who ladder with no lifeline.

For goodness sake, lighten up.

Where did I say I never used a line?