Lifelining - what are you're thoughts.

[danthecavingman]

What do people think about the safety of a belayer being an integral part of the lifelining system on a pitch. I.e. belaying someone from a stop or other device clipped into the maillon of your harness, as opposed to having a seperate belay system rigged from bolts where the lifeliner is clipped to the belay and not integral to it. (Hope that makes sense).

So would you line someone from your harness, or from a stop on a sling off a bolt (or two).

The obvious point here is the belayers ability to free himself and do something if a situation arose. You can't do much if you've got someones dead weight clipped to your harness.

Discuss........

 

[darkplaces]

I guess if you can lower someone down if they fell off/went uncon. then its ok. The important thing to get them back on the deck.

When practising SRT I used a belay (ATX Dimond) to provide a means of getting down if they could not or did not want to change over at the top.

Your also limited to what rigging points you have.

To free yourself from being a belayer you need a spair jammer and someplace to achor it to (what ever your achored too I guess), or be confident about your prusick loops. Once transfered close the system by tieing off the rope to the achor point then you can get your jammer off to climb up the rope if needed. I read that in a climbing book

 

[cap n chris]

Personally I wouldn't care to belay someone unless I was "outside" of the system (albeit clipped in for my own safety), i.e. where I was not part of the loaded chain in the event of the climber relying on the rope.

Simple system is:-

Belay
>
Figure 8 knot with Italian Hitch (assuming it's a short pitch)
>
Clipping in loop for belayer
>
rope to climber

This is the simplest safe system, requiring only a rope and karabiners. It can quickly, easily and safely be converted to a 2:1 haul in the event of the climber being fatigued and at all times the belayer is not part of the loaded system in the event that the rope becomes taut under use.

Obviously the more technical kit you're using, the more options you have but KISS.

 

[paul]

What do people think about the safety of a belayer being an integral part of the lifelining system on a pitch. I.e. belaying someone from a stop or other device clipped into the maillon of your harness, as opposed to having a seperate belay system rigged from bolts where the lifeliner is clipped to the belay and not integral to it. (Hope that makes sense).

So would you line someone from your harness, or from a stop on a sling off a bolt (or two).

The obvious point here is the belayers ability to free himself and do something if a situation arose. You can't do much if you've got someones dead weight clipped to your harness.

Discuss........

You're talking about Direct or Indirect belaying. A Direct belay (where the belay device is attached directly to anchors and you are safely belayed as well) has the advantage of allowing you to "escape the system" (as you said) in order to render assistance if required after locking off the rope. Of course it would also be much easier to convert toa a haul system if the belay device is not attached directly to your harness as opposed to the anchors.

An Indirect belay (where you are belayed to the anchors and the belay device is attached directly to you via the harness or an attachment to the harness) is often used in situations where the anchors may be suspect and some of the shock-load after a fall can be absorbed, such as in ice climbing for example.

Providing the anchors are "bomb-proof", and the SHOULD be in a caving situation, I see no benefit of not using a Direct belay providing you do not have any obstruction in moving the controlling rope in order to hold a fall.

 

[epik]

Have been known to do a quick body belay in the past when the time called for it....

..but in general i'd always use a direct (to anchors) belay and tie myself in on the other side of the anchor if required! Not a fan of tieing yourself in between the anchor and the belay (semi-direct) as this can lead to you being pulled about in the event of a fall! In climbing top set ups are almost always semi-direct (unless multipitching) but in caving i prefere to be able to move about a bit more when lining! Usefull to be able to look down teh pitch without being pulled over the edge iif they fall!

As for kit i'd normally use a ATC or similar (or italian hitch if short pitch and newish rope) though many cavers seem to dislike ATC's!

 

[cap n chris]

Epik, how do you use an ATC with a "direct to anchors belay", given that the device is designed to be operated from the waist allowing you to create friction by holding the rope in line? I just can't picture it.

 

[Brains]

Generally I prefer to use a direct belay, with an italian hitch, stop or pulley jammer depending on the circumstances. For the latter it is essential to know how to release the system safely but has the advantage of being able to give direct assistance very easily by counterbalancing the rope. For lighter people, or when I have had my weetabix, it is all the pulley system I need! I have also on occasion used indirect belays from either an italien hitch or body belay where needs must. A well placed cobble can make an excellent belay thread - just because it is an old technique and requires a little skill to use doesnt make it worthless.

Look at the group, look at the climb, assess the group dynamic and the available equipment, belays, conditions and geography. Use the simplest practicle solution that is safe.

 

[gus horsley]

I think both systems have their merits, depending on the location, ability of group, availability of anchors, etc. I do a lot of climbing and if I can rig an indirect belay I will, but there are loads of circumstances in which a direct belay is the only possible option. You've just got to assess the situation and choose the best method.

 

[epik]

Epik, how do you use an ATC with a "direct to anchors belay", given that the device is designed to be operated from the waist allowing you to create friction by holding the rope in line? I just can't picture it.

Firstly just to clarify for people not up on direct, semi, indirect when i say direct that means the shock load is transfered directly to the anchors (i.e. doesnt go through you on its way) and doesnt mean it is literally clipped directly to the bolt etc.

As for how i do it (say its a bolt) figure of eight to the bolt (though bowline would do - Fig8 is just habit) with a long tail which then becomes tied to me thus making my safety line! Then run the rope down to a suitable point and tie another fig8 and clip crab to this! I can then use it as normal and is quicker than a iti hitch on a stiff rope!

The ATC isn't designed to be on a harness as such its just a connection in the safety chain aslong as your in position to pull the rope back to lock (i.e. its in the same space as if it were on your harness just not actually atached to you) it fine and this practice is used alot in SPA for climbing on walls when anchors are bolts in the floor and the kids are all of unequal weights!

 

[SamT]

When caving - I rarely use an indirect system, unlike in climbing - 99% of pitch heads are nicely bolted - usually with spanky nice p bolts - so a direct belay with either a munter(italian) or a stop is by far the most sensible an easiest thing to rig.

Why bother with an ATC type friction device when an italian hitch will suffice.

What percentage of the cavers you cave with *actually* need lowering down. I guess if you are an instructer working with complete novices a lot then a stop would be worth bringing along.

Things are a bit different when rock climbing, multi pitch/single or top roping - and the reasons for various setups exist for different reasons/situations than encountered on ladders - so really, we should try and avoid comparing the two.

 

[epik]

Why bother with an ATC type friction device when an italian hitch will suffice.

A few reasons for me i guess. One is its easier to use than a muddy iti hitch IMHO and im used to it from climbing (plus a GriGri/Stop are heavier and take longer to load).

Main reason is speed for me! I find once the climber is at the bottom with an itiH you have to undo it to bring the rope back up where as with a ATC you can stand infront of the ATC and just pull the rope back up with no hindrance from the device. So no need to keep undoeing and redoing it thus less chance of accidents and its faster!

I am always belaying novices which may need lowering and are larger groups, leaders/mates can generally climb ladders without the need for a line but i'd probably do the same unless i forget the ATC which happens often!

The one advantage with an itiH is you can get closer to the pitch head to see whats going on but good calls will make this unnessasary!

 

[potholer]

For lifelining cave-climbs or ladder pitches from above (to the extent I still do any lifelining), I'd likely use an Italian hitch direct to bolts, though the friction and rope-twisting can be a pain.
I imagine if I regularly took groups caving who needed lifelining, I'd probably at least investigate some mechanical device.

 

[cap n chris]

leaders/mates can generally climb ladders without the need for a line

I take it you've never had a ladder snap, then?

 

[danthecavingman]

I have. It was very scary. :shock:

 

[epik]

leaders/mates can generally climb ladders without the need for a line

I take it you've never had a ladder snap, then?

No though i have had a mate get his boots caught on the ladder and need rescueing only seconds after having insisted he didnt need me to line him!

I'm not going to start worrying about ladders snapping!

 

[cap n chris]

I'm not going to start worrying about ladders snapping!

... you don't need to, if you're using a lifeline with them :wink:

 

[Brains]

I have had a ladder snap on me, or rather with me on it, and it was instant and not fun at all. Lucky for me the pitch bottom was a mud bank that tailed off.
At the risk of going OT / mixing threads ladders are the work of the devil and have hurt many more people than Stops...

 

[graham]

At the risk of going OT / mixing threads ladders are the work of the devil and have hurt many more people than Stops...

I wonder whether anyone (Mr Sparrow?) has any stats on that?

 

[epik]

I'm not going to start worrying about ladders snapping!

... you don't need to, if you're using a lifeline with them :wink:

but what if i slip and die on the way down due to the added weight of a rope in my tackle bag?

Just don't use a ladder - freeclimbing "the way forward"!

 

[epik]

100% of all ladder accidents happen whilst using ladders!

Ladders made of shoelace and bogroll tubes are statistically safer!

Sorry couldn't resist!

Does anyone still use the ladders with movable rungs that used to slip and trap your fingers for added fun?