Longwood

[Stupot]

Help me please ..................

From Great Chamber I entered Christmas Crawl on the right hand wall, I then stepped up into a rift where you follow the water coming towards you, I assume I then came into the Drain Pipe ?, I then entered a pot where a torrent of water was coming down on me ........... I accended this for some 20m before heading back down, was this August and would it have linked up with the first ladder pitch near the main entrance ?

Stu.

 

[Les W]

Yes

 

[Les W]

You follow the torrent up and into the rift from where it comes (awkward)
Go upstream for a short distance and climb up following the water. At the obvious side passage leave the water and go along the rift for 3m or so and you will be at the bottom of the second climbdown (ladder?) just down from letterbox. An excellent trip!!!!

 

[Stupot]

Cheers Les,

So we were on course, shame we back tracked all the way :roll:

Cracking cave, and pretty sporting ........ will be back to complete it soon.

Stu.

 

[Les W]

Yes, it sounds like you had done all the wet awkward stuff and only had a short easy dry horizontal bit left to regain the exit route.

Still, you are now an expert on the rest of it now, having done it twice!!

 

[Stupot]

The wet awkward stuff was the easy bit, it was that bloody lock on the entrance that I cursed for 20 minutes

Stu.

 

[cap n chris]

That's the good replacement lock for the shit one which used to take anything up to an hour to open!

A refurbished lock will be going on Longwood sometime so it should be easier (!) to open in future....

 

[epik]

The wet awkward stuff was the easy bit, it was that bloody lock on the entrance that I cursed for 20 minutes

Stu.

Join the club! 30 mins trying to get out while the snow blows down on top of me finally to get out and find the car snowed in! great cave but you do wonder if you will ever get out again - you begin to hope cave rescue bring a acetelyne cutter with them!

 

[epik]

That's the good replacement lock for the shit one which used to take anything up to an hour to open!

A refurbished lock will be going on Longwood sometime so it should be easier (!) to open in future....

Could they not change it to a system like that on GB so if nothing else its quick to get out even if it does still take ages to get in. Also in the event of a key getting jammed in the lock no-one gets trapped down the cave - i imagine cutting the lock off as it is now would be a right arse if the latest GB key issue also happened at longwood august!

 

[cap n chris]

The problem is Longwood is on a very busy footpath and the GB entrance system requires that the lock is outside (locking a small flap which gains access to slide the bar across to open the gate). GB is in a depression which mostly only cavers know about - it is not on a thoroughfare; therefore the padlock does not receive unwanted attention from hordes of people.

The other problem is that about 10 organisations have keys and changing padlocks and keys is expensive so for the time being I imagine it's a case of carry on as before but with the addition of refurbished padlocks arriving in due course.

Graham will know more.

Another problem (sorry to sound negative) is either you require funding or volunteers to fabricate a new lid since "he who pays the piper calls the tune". Delivering a new lid or altering the one already there would require 4X4 transport and/or welding equipment and generator. Longwood is a SSSI so that could possibly also require Somerset Wildlife Trust to seek permission from English Nature (Natural England).

So, in order to solve the problem of cavers having to spend a bit of time pfaffing around with a key in an otherwise functioning lock could involve major expense of time, effort and money which presently would need to be conjured up out of thin air. The expression "It's easier said than done" is so very apt when it comes to Conservation & Access work (and many other things too).

 

[cap n chris]

Oh, and by the way....

I changed the locks over back in December/January so that the old ones could be taken away for refurbishment. On my first visit I was unable to open the padlock and spent about 45 minutes on it before giving up.

The next day I went with a packed lunch, expecting to be there for ages and ages. Of course the key slid straight into the padlock and it opened immediately, taking about 10 seconds.

So, if you get it right, the padlock can open in next to no time; get it slightly wrong and you'll be there for effing ages. And before anyone points it out, yes, the Rhino Rift gate needs attention/replacement and yes the padlock is temporary but works.

 

[epik]

Totally understand why it is like it is - the passers by is an issue and fiddling with the key makes it all more exciting as makes you feel like your doing something not everyone else gets chance to do though i do just wonder how long it would take to get a party out if their key snapped off in the lock akin to that which happened at GB?

why are caving locks generally so awkward? do they make them specifically for caving or is the lock smith who copies the original key just shit?

 

[cap n chris]

why are caving locks generally so awkward? do they make them specifically for caving or is the lock smith who copies the original key just shit?

Mostly because they're so old; to purchase a like-for-like new padlock for Longwood would be around £100 (not including keys which IIRC are about another £10 each so that would be £200 total).

The other problems are: small creatures lurk inside the key aperture and become crushed inside when the key is inserted, thereby creating an obstacle inside the lock mechanism which makes the padlock harder to operate. Also, cavers frequently insert muddy keys which gets grit inside which doesn't improve matters much either. Finally, people have been using WD40 rather than 3-in-1 oil - WD40 works for a short while and then evaporates, removing lubrication as it does: please don't use WD40! However, if you MUST use WD40 make sure you subsequently lubricate the lock with 3-in-1 oil afterwards.

 

[epik]

WD40 works for a short while and then evaporates, removing lubrication as it does: please don't use WD40! However, if you MUST use WD40 make sure you subsequently lubricate the lock with 3-in-1 oil afterwards.

Also on the WD40 point i've noticed that people use it to loosen up cams in climbing but WD40 has a habit of attracting grit and crap to it whereas the silicon spray most brands recomend doesnt do this so agreed WD40 is not a good idea! Can see why the locks get shittied up - shame us cavers are so dirty!

think in future caves should have big red buttons inside that work like these electric garage doors so they just open automatically - and preferably elevate you out of the cave while there doing it. also maybe a baggage belt so you just load it on and it takes it to your car much akin to the system at airport!

 

[Hughie]

I've often wondered if Longwood actually needs such a strong, heavyweight, almost unopenable lock. It's virtually inaccessable due to it's placement. Surely a much cheaper (padlocks are not expensive - I'd consider £100 for a lock to be a total rip-off) and less mechanically vulnerable would be an option - especially as the lock has to be opened with grubby hands/key when exiting.

Perhaps CCC Ltd should consider installing a hacksaw or bolt cutter inside the blockhouse to facilitate escape should the lock fail. A temporary lock could also reside there, enabling the entrance to remain secure, in such an event.

Food for thought - Stubborn lids have been removed with Dr Nobels chemicals within the last 10 years due to lock/lid failure. Allegedly.

 

[cap n chris]

GRAHAM, COME BACK FROM IRELAND AND JOIN THIS THREAD!...

(I think one of the chief reasons for using the more expensive option of padlock is that there is a need to minimise key proliferation via unauthorised copying - hence it is a security padlock where people can't get copies cut on the sly).

 

[wallop]

I think the Longwwod trip was awsome, are you sure you don't fancy a return trip this Wednesday :wink: :shock: :shock:

 

[whitelackington]

Whats appened to this new ole that appered near to but down vale from Longwood, has the chap who spotted it dug it yet :?:

 

[graham]

Hello all:

Decent padlocks cost money. Fact.

The Longwood lock is regularly replaced and serviced (I have generally managed to get the servicing done for free, as I give the locksmith quite a lot of business one way or another. However, if I am told about problems early then I can get the spare lock on ahead of the replacement schedule, leading to fewer problems.

It is true what Chris says, the blockhouse is in an obvious spot next to a well-used path; CCC Ltd are responsible for keeping the place secure and would be in deep mire if it was left unsecured.

It would be nice to have a system whereby one can get out without a key, but as has been pointed out this would be difficult to manage. However, ever wiling to oblige, if anyone can come up with a design to replace the current gate which would do the trick and which they are willing to fabricate then I reckon the company would go along with it and I am reasonably certain that I could get SWT to agree limited access to a vehicle to deliver & fit it.

 

[Hughie]

Hello all:

Decent padlocks cost money. Fact.

The Longwood lock is regularly replaced and serviced (I have generally managed to get the servicing done for free, as I give the locksmith quite a lot of business one way or another. However, if I am told about problems early then I can get the spare lock on ahead of the replacement schedule, leading to fewer problems.

It is true what Chris says, the blockhouse is in an obvious spot next to a well-used path; CCC Ltd are responsible for keeping the place secure and would be in deep mire if it was left unsecured.

It would be nice to have a system whereby one can get out without a key, but as has been pointed out this would be difficult to manage. However, ever wiling to oblige, if anyone can come up with a design to replace the current gate which would do the trick and which they are willing to fabricate then I reckon the company would go along with it and I am reasonably certain that I could get SWT to agree limited access to a vehicle to deliver & fit it.

I can see the problems, as securing the lid from the inside without locking it still has to allow access from the outside for anyone else needing to enter the cave whilst there is already a group in there.

I am trying to remember what the inside of the Longwood lid looks like but it has been 2 or 3 years since I have been in there. I did wonder though if it would be possible to alter the locking arrangement so that the current padlock opens access to a bolt (sort of like GB but on the inside of the cave lid) That way the bolt can still be opened if the padlock refuses to unlock but only if you are inside the cave at the time.

Don't blame Hughie for this (probably) dopey idea as I have pinched his computer to post this reply!

Also I have absolutely no welding or building skills so I would be no use at all in fabricating anything!