Loss of cave access, CROW and other things

[Stu]

Why does it make it any more or less likely that open access will lead to desecration of caves?

Does increasing access = less damage? Or do you think limiting access = less damage?

Increasing access can spread the wear and tear. Neither point can be proven absolute. Of course limiting access can reduce damage, so let's press the nuclear button and close all caves (silly I know, or is it?).

Question: has limited access or permit systems protected the caves that said permits/agreements related to? Or put another way, does prohibition of any kind work - drugs, alcohol etc?

You want to stop cave damage? Educate, educate, educate. Put the onus on the individual.

There's a strange phenomenon I witness when traffic lights are broken at otherwise really busy road junctions. People get along by making up their own rules, knowing the consequence of getting it wrong (i.e. a shunted car/bike/lorry). And guess what? They often self manage the system with a better outcome than when the "rules" of the lights are followed. Of course this can't be proven by me and maybe I've just been lucky.

 

[Ian Adams]

"we should not impose our ?line in the sand? onto others"  I think that's pretty close to a definition of anarchy.

Out of context I guess you could read it like that. In context it sits harmoniously with moral and ethical values and, specifically, with the idealogy of conservation.

Ian

 

[graham]

Question: has limited access or permit systems protected the caves that said permits/agreements related to?

Yes. Compare the condition of the caves on Mendip that have leadership systems with the condition of those that don't.

 

[martinr]

Question: has limited access or permit systems protected the caves that said permits/agreements related to?

Well, in the situation I referred to earlier, Yes - a limited access system has protected the cave

 

[Stu]

Yes Graham they do... Some (not very imaginative) people walk the same route (for charity?) causing footpath erosion. And because of that one piece of evidence, you win. 

Meanwhile I'll carry on running and hiking (and let's not forget caving) on the other areas of CRoW where I never seem to see anyone else. Even though it's open access...

This isn't about winning or losing, it's about the best way to balance cave access against cave conservation.

You may be able to access other bits of CRoW land where you never see other people, but different things apply in caves. If a passage is large enough to allow straying off the footpaths into the empty bits there are all sorts of conservation issues that come into play. Don't believe me? Ask all the people who have spent so long laying taped paths in the Frozen Deep in Reservoir Hole.

Again, how does limiting access stop this? One person on a permit could contaminate spotless stal. Or does the issuing of a permit somehow predispose this person to only walk the right way? In a cave, just like moorland, if there are bits that need protecting then well done all round to the people who do the job of taping. Wouldn't that get done anyway? It's not the number of people per se, but where they're allowed to go, surely?

Caves are not like moors and need to be treated differently. I would have thought that was obvious, but, seemingly, it isn't.

A minute ago you were saying moors were like caves what with all the erosion on the Three Peaks in Yorkshire.

 

[martinr]

You want to stop cave damage? Educate, educate, educate.

How do you propose to do this? What resources would you need? What would the cost be? Who will pay for it?

 

[martinr]

It's not the number of people per se, but where they're allowed to go, surely?

But the free access people are arguing anybody should be allowed to go everywhere? Are you suggesting there should be limits to access?

 

[Stu]

To Martin and Graham:

Lots of caves in Yorkshire on a permit system with plenty of damage.

So if the leader led trips are the only way to protect caves, is it too much of a leap to suggest all caving becomes nothing more than what happens at show caves? I'm being serious (in a philosophical sort of way); this goes beyond permits or agreements.

As for education: BCA. Internet, publications (Descent), spot treat places like (insert name of favourite caver cafe/pub/club hut) with a poster campaign (I'll print off a hundred cheap posters for you!).

 

[antmcc]

Question: has limited access or permit systems protected the caves that said permits/agreements related to?

Yes. Compare the condition of the caves on Mendip that have leadership systems with the condition of those that don't.

Since you don't know the state these systems would be if they didn't have access conditions, you can only conjecture what might have happened (unless you have identical control caves)

 

[Stu]

It's not the number of people per se, but where they're allowed to go, surely?

But the free access people are arguing anybody should be allowed to go everywhere? Are you suggesting there should be limits to access?

I'm not sure they are Martin. I'm definitely not. If a presently open cave on CRoW land needs a permit to grant access, then I really do think it a bit of a nonsense. Why can I wander willy nilly over Fountains Fell as a walker/runner yet there is a closed season for caving over winter?

A sensible sift through the cave areas on a case by case basis and a proper look is all I'm asking - I can't talk for other cavers and what their agendas might be.

 

[TheBitterEnd]

You want to stop cave damage? Educate, educate, educate. Put the onus on the individual.

There's a strange phenomenon I witness when traffic lights are broken at otherwise really busy road junctions. People get along by making up their own rules, knowing the consequence of getting it wrong (i.e. a shunted car/bike/lorry). And guess what? They often self manage the system with a better outcome than when the "rules" of the lights are followed. Of course this can't be proven by me and maybe I've just been lucky.

Well said!

Recent threads on this forum show that mindless idiots will commit acts of vandalism in some of the further reaches of caves. These are not due to hoards of the great unwashed* or kids but people who have put some effort into reaching that part of the cave and presumbaly had the equipment and knowledge to get there.


*or would that be "washed" WRT cavers?

 

[Alex]

I have kept quite recently letting you lot bash it out but I thought I would throw my 2.5p in.

I think you are right Stu too and I am sure we are not alone, that land we can already walk on requires a permit to walk on if your destination is a cave.

One devils advocate question: if the land is open access but is a SSSI which one takes precedence, or do the two not coincide?

Another thing whats bugged me about this thread is why do people think the land value will go down just because maybe 20% more people walk over it, if its already CROW land then I can't see it effecting the value. Infact having a cave on the land may improve the value of the land as its an "interesting feature" If I am not mistakned there was some land sold recently with a cave on it and the cave was listed as a feature, not a dteriment and as someone else said its possible to make a little bit of money from good will fees for caves on the land increasing the value further.

 

[langcliffe]

One devils advocate question: if the land is open access but is a SSSI which one takes precedence, or do the two not coincide?

They can coincide. Designating an area as a SSSI does not affect access to that area per se, although the administering authority may exclude or restrict access to CROW land under Section 26 for reasons of "Nature conservation and heritage preservation".

 

[notdavidgilmour]

Just a point I would like to make regarding conservation.  After reading http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-19515285

Certain lines of text jumped out at me

• It took the group four years of tunnelling before they discovered the "vast chamber" of stalagmites, stalactites and 5m (16ft) tall pillars.
• Digging through silt and gravel, splitting boulders and occasionally using explosives, the group has spent up to four hours a week since 2008 clearing a narrow 0.5m (1.6ft) passageway.

Surely blowing things up does not fall in line with conservation?  How many people criticised the "Tuesday Diggers"?  Was it right to alter the original cave? 

Suddenly because they happened to find a sizable chamber, all is forgiven?  I'm sure some stal damage however minute must have been caused by using explosives?

 

[mikem]

Of course some damage was caused in the discovery of The Frozen Deep, but they were removing blocks that had filled an older passageway, not mining their way through solid rock.

I suppose the closest to a "control" cave situation I can think of would be Ogof Clogwyn - open access, shows wear and tear but little that can be easily damaged. Ogof Nant Rhin, entry was restricted by the size of the entrance until a lorry drove off the main road and blocked it, new entrance was dug out and is now large enough for most to get in and the formations have noticeably suffered. Ogof Capel, where a leader system was introduced after damage occurred in a key controlled system. All within a short distance of each other in the Clydach Gorge.

Mike

 

[notdavidgilmour]

Mike, Please don't feel I'm picking holes in your post as I agree with you in gereral, but:

Of course some damage was caused in the discovery of The Frozen Deep, but they were removing blocks that had filled an older passageway, not mining their way through solid rock.

But by the same token, it is therefore ok to damage stals (which are also not solid rock and have filled an older passageway) in favour of exploration.

Just before anyone shoots me, I would prefer that stals were left unharmed.  The point I'm trying to make is that in some cases it is deemed acceptable to cause damage and in others it isn't.

 

[mikem]

Indeed and it has to be done on a case by case basis, you can't legislate either way...

Mike

 

[jasonbirder]

While I'll sidestep the access/conservation issue for a moment...
Surely its relatively easy to agree that there are many situations where a cave entrance in on CROW land...but access is currently possibly only by permit with various time of year/membership restrictions etc that it would be sensible to revisit...
As it has been pointed out already...the landowner currently would allow someone to kit up in caving gear...walk to the entrance of the cave and look in...without any restrictions...like wise come away from the entrance and walk back to their starting point/car etc...
But the instant they pass beyond the portal as it were...their activity comes under another completely different and more restrictive remit...
Where is the logic in treating accessing a cave as opposed to visiting a cave as two completely seperate activities?

 

[RobinGriffiths]

And at what point does climbing stop being an open air activity ?
Buttertubs?
Hull Pot?
Alum ?
Hunt ?

Or would you need a roof vertically above you for it to be caving ?

 

[mikem]

Probably when you start using fixed aids...

Mike