Lost krab, Eldon Hole !!!
- Thread starter SamP
- Start date
,if anyone goes down would they be kind enough to have a look,and let me know if they find it. 
cap n chris
Well-known member
I'm kinda guessin' you didn't drop it the entire depth of the main pitch thus rendering it a potentially fractured, dangerous and hence valueless piece of metalwork but instead placed it on one side somewhere along the way and merely overlooked picking it up again, hence meaning that it is still a trustworthy item of kit.
paul
Moderator
cap 'n chris said:
I'm only the "messenger" so don't shoot me!
The DMM factory used to debunk this myth about dropped krabs during visits: For an alternative view, see: http://www.onrope1.com/Myth1.htm.
cap n chris
Well-known member
fanks4handylinkypoo.
Very interesting footnote:
"OEM Petzl says: 1mm of wear or gouge is serious enough wear or damage to require replacement."
BTW don't remember shooting anyone recently.
Very interesting footnote:
"OEM Petzl says: 1mm of wear or gouge is serious enough wear or damage to require replacement."
BTW don't remember shooting anyone recently.
underground
Active member
cap 'n chris said:
Ever read 'Awake' or 'The Watchtower'? If not do so and see if you believe everything you read.....
Cave_Troll
Active member
yes thats right, everything you read is false. Inclduing this posting.
cap n chris
Well-known member
This thread is kinda like a Zeno of Elea paradox.
Cave_Troll
Active member
anyway back to the topic.
that "mythbuster" website may say "it fine to drop carabiners" but i'm still going to be cautious.
most of the "myths" that they're trying to bust are erring on the safe side. i see no real reason not to mistrust a carabiner fater its been dropped down a 60m hole. there is no danger in that.
Also some studies i have seen "bust" their "Busting".
Studies have shown that it does matter which tail end of the fig 8, even though they claim it does not. The effect is not large, but it is there.
Also the French tests of "what can you soak rope in" showed no change in strength after soaking in human urine at 50deg C. this is matched by Merchant LOAL2, but contradicted by this website who claim a strength reduction of up to 30%
They also claim that urine is acidic, which is only sometimes true.
that "mythbuster" website may say "it fine to drop carabiners" but i'm still going to be cautious.
most of the "myths" that they're trying to bust are erring on the safe side. i see no real reason not to mistrust a carabiner fater its been dropped down a 60m hole. there is no danger in that.
Also some studies i have seen "bust" their "Busting".
Studies have shown that it does matter which tail end of the fig 8, even though they claim it does not. The effect is not large, but it is there.
Also the French tests of "what can you soak rope in" showed no change in strength after soaking in human urine at 50deg C. this is matched by Merchant LOAL2, but contradicted by this website who claim a strength reduction of up to 30%
They also claim that urine is acidic, which is only sometimes true.
underground
Active member
Cave_Troll said:
Ok good point, but I think in my late night logic I concluded that petzl are hardly going to say that krabs will last forever.
However, for the sake of 7 quid, it's probably best to err on the side of caution if you drop a krab down a deep hole.
I w0nder if the type of urine affects the outcome of the tests?
Agree with CT about caution. I remember once hearing from a metallurgist that for alloy gear, dropping isn't generally an issue as significant cracks tend to be visible; cast metals are more brittle so the risks are higher. However, if I dropped a krab it would (OK - should!) end up in my "use for deviations/holding bags on" pile.
Agree with CT about caution. I remember once hearing from a metallurgist that for alloy gear, dropping isn't generally an issue as significant cracks tend to be visible; cast metals are more brittle so the risks are higher. However, if I dropped a krab it would (OK - should!) end up in my "use for deviations/holding bags on" pile.
paul
Moderator
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and yes, if you think you're better of junking dropped krab go ahead.
But just for information's sake, I prefer to stick to what the manufacturers say.
Petzl have what seems a blanket clause "Do not use this product after a major fall or a major impact (fall of the product or impact on the product). Even though no external signs may be visible, a deformation may restrict its operation or internal damage may have occurred, thus reducing its strength. Do not hesitate to contact PETZL in case of doubt."
I would rather follow advice backed up by testing rather than because the lawyers told them to say it. For example: "Myth: "Carabiners are susceptible to hair-line fractures if they are dropped. These fractures cannot be seen by the naked eye, but can drastically weaken a carabiner. So NEVER DROP YOUR CARABINER. If you do, it is best to discard it immediately and replace it with a new one." (source: http://www.cbcnsw.org.au/docs/AbseilGuidelines.pdf)
Reality: This is not true of modern carabiners. First, the "grain" of the aluminum runs parallel to the stock, not perpendicular, so undetectable hairline fractures spontaneously causing carabiner failure just isn't true. Steve Nagode, a quality assurance engineer with REI, conducted an experiment in which carabiners were dropped six times from a distance of 10 meters onto a concrete floor. The breaking strength of the carabiners was then determined with a 50-kN load cell. The results: no reduction in strength was observed when comparing the dropped carabiners with carabiners that had not been dropped.
This isn't opinion but the result of a test by the manufacturer (in this case REI, a US manufacturer). You cannot argue with that.
Black Diamond's website says this: "It's best to inspect dropped gear for dings and significant trauma. If only light scratching is visible and gate action is still good, there is a good chance it is fit for usage."
I used to have a few Twistlock krabs among my climbing gear marked "second". I forgot about that and after lending a friend on of these, he almost sh*t himself when he saw the "second" on the krab after he had abseiled with it. I then explained that they were cosmetic seconds...
If you suspect that a piece of equipment is damaged and no longer safe then it is best to get rid of it altogether rather than retire them to the "deviation, tackle bag clipping-on" pile. Invariably these end up back in the "I'm sure these are safe" pile...
But just for information's sake, I prefer to stick to what the manufacturers say.
Petzl have what seems a blanket clause "Do not use this product after a major fall or a major impact (fall of the product or impact on the product). Even though no external signs may be visible, a deformation may restrict its operation or internal damage may have occurred, thus reducing its strength. Do not hesitate to contact PETZL in case of doubt."
I would rather follow advice backed up by testing rather than because the lawyers told them to say it. For example: "Myth: "Carabiners are susceptible to hair-line fractures if they are dropped. These fractures cannot be seen by the naked eye, but can drastically weaken a carabiner. So NEVER DROP YOUR CARABINER. If you do, it is best to discard it immediately and replace it with a new one." (source: http://www.cbcnsw.org.au/docs/AbseilGuidelines.pdf)
Reality: This is not true of modern carabiners. First, the "grain" of the aluminum runs parallel to the stock, not perpendicular, so undetectable hairline fractures spontaneously causing carabiner failure just isn't true. Steve Nagode, a quality assurance engineer with REI, conducted an experiment in which carabiners were dropped six times from a distance of 10 meters onto a concrete floor. The breaking strength of the carabiners was then determined with a 50-kN load cell. The results: no reduction in strength was observed when comparing the dropped carabiners with carabiners that had not been dropped.
This isn't opinion but the result of a test by the manufacturer (in this case REI, a US manufacturer). You cannot argue with that.
Black Diamond's website says this: "It's best to inspect dropped gear for dings and significant trauma. If only light scratching is visible and gate action is still good, there is a good chance it is fit for usage."
I used to have a few Twistlock krabs among my climbing gear marked "second". I forgot about that and after lending a friend on of these, he almost sh*t himself when he saw the "second" on the krab after he had abseiled with it. I then explained that they were cosmetic seconds...
If you suspect that a piece of equipment is damaged and no longer safe then it is best to get rid of it altogether rather than retire them to the "deviation, tackle bag clipping-on" pile. Invariably these end up back in the "I'm sure these are safe" pile...
