Lucky, Lucky, B@stard

[SpaceHopper]

SpaceHopper wrote:
There is no such thing as a good witness.

I disagree with that rather sweeping statement.

Ask any detective.

 

[Titch98]

Lessons to be learnt:

1) ALWAYS, as a leader, know the sytem you are undertaking and allow for the experience of your group - if it means changing your planed trip, THEN CHANGE IT!

2) ALWAYS expect the unexpected and be prepared for it (system knowlege, again.....)

3) Get as much information from your novice cavers about their abilities BEFORE even planning a trip (ie. fear of heights, swimming capabilities etc, etc..........)

 

[bubba]

The inspector will not say... hmmm but I must take the statisical record into account? A loose poised flake is a hazard whether it is on an unsafe building or underground. On a building site such hazards would clearly be deemed unsafe by society, by the state and by the workers.

I see your point but it's almost like looking at air travel and saying "it flies at 30,000ft and goes 500mph, if an engine fails everyone will die!"
Yes, it's potentially lethal, but statistically it's not actually that dangerous. Probably not a great analogy really....

Caving is dangerous. You cannot deny it.

I'm not saying that it *can* be dangerous, but I just don't think most caving is particularly dangerous, providing reasonable precautions are taken.

I've said I am not familiar with the cave in question. I have taken small children on mountains where probably 20 people have died since 1972. So what!

It depends whether you do all in your power to ensure their safety and to not lead them in an irresponsible manner.

Society should stop expecting such garentees for these activities.

This is a different issue, and I agree.

And you should stop trying to give the impression that these activites can ever be safe.

Caving can be very safe. That's my opinion.

Fall in line behind the NCA statement and stop reading the daily mail.

Ha ha ha Come on, that's ridiculous, I've never bought a tabloid in my life!

Bubba overall you seem to be implying that a guide or instructor can garentee safety. What I am saying is that is just not possible.

No, I've never said that at all. I'm saying that a guide should do all in their power to ensure the safety of their party, and act in a responsible manner. In the situation being discussed, I don't think that that was the case.

For sure a guide could behave negligently and deserve to be punished or pay compensation. Conversly just because an accident happens it does not follow that the guide was negligent.

In many cases I would agree.

 

[bubba]

SpaceHopper wrote:
There is no such thing as a good witness.

I disagree with that rather sweeping statement.

Ask any detective.

So, I can assume you've asked them all then? Don't accuse me of tabloid style statements when you come out with stuff like that. Do you really believe there's never been a good witness?

 

[paul]

Whew - a lot of posting going on!

Let's summarise so far:
A person in the position of instructor takes a group of Army reruits caving, some/all are under 18.
Instructor chooses cave he isn't familiar with and has no prior knowledge.
Instructor leads party through cave past many warning signs.
Member of party (a non-swimmer) gets into trouble.
Same person ends up drowning.

Yes - caving is dangerous. There are risks many are "calculated" risks. There are also stupid, wreckless risks.

Supposing you were caving for the first time and were taken by an instructor to Mossdale Caverns while all around are dark clouds and you can also hear thunder. You may know caving has its dangers, but you are being led by an instructor, you think "he knows what he is doing", so you do as you are told...

Was this a "calculated" risk, accepting that there are dangers? Or was it sheer wrecklessness?

 

[SamT]

Erm hang on a minute -

Spacehopper - I'm under the impression that you think that the instructer should not have been charged since its not his fault that the recruit died, it was a accident, one that could be expected if your going to partake in an activity such as caving.
Well durrrr - the charges were dropped and the man walked free. Whats the prob.

Mudman - you were simply stating that in todays 'nanny state' litiginous society - to be the leader of such a trip, having made the choises you did and to walk away with no recriminations is pretty lucky.

everyone be cool 8)

 

[bubba]

Stop spoiling a good argument by being so reasonable :wink:

 

[SamT]

Opps

Sorry - carry on

 

[mudman]

Too late, you've gone an' spoilt it now. ldgit:

 

[SamT]

did anyone ever read about the cadet who was rescued from the sump in Carlswark in the 1960s. Now he was a lucky,lucky B.

 

[Mark]

did anyone ever read about the cadet who was rescued from the sump in Carlswark in the 1960s. Now he was a lucky,lucky B.

Went through that sump in the 70s during drought what a bitch, the hole into the air space he found was really tight, cant imagine how he made it after about 80ft of filthy sump

 

[SamT]

trying to find full story - it used to be on HnH website Under DCRO but not there any more - will carry on looking.