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Lugging Cement

Sewer Rat

New member
I may get shot down by conservation aware folk but would expanding foam be a no no instead of cement.
its light to carry, very controlable and 1 can goes a very long way. and sticks to everything.
I wouldnt like to see the state of your tackle bag if you crushed the can on the way in . :eek:

before i get shouted at . I have never tried to use expanding foam in a cave  before.
 

nickwilliams

Well-known member
Sewer Rat said:
I may get shot down by conservation aware folk but would expanding foam be a no no instead of cement.
its light to carry, very controlable and 1 can goes a very long way. and sticks to everything.
I wouldnt like to see the state of your tackle bag if you crushed the can on the way in . :eek:

before i get shouted at . I have never tried to use expanding foam in a cave  before.

It certainly has its uses, but it's orders of magnitude weaker than cement so you need to be careful not to rely on it for anything structural. It's ideal for holding rocks in place so they can support the weight of what's above them, but the foam itself won't support the weight so you have to be sure there is something else to provide structural strength if support is what you need.

Also, I'm not certain it doesn't evolve toxic gases as it sets so I'd be careful using it in a confined space.

Nick.
 

Brains

Well-known member
We have used it in the past to provide a temporary fix to bottom of the entrance pitchs in Oxlow, built a drystone wall upto the bottom of the existing shuttering (over 2m high) and foamed it up to prevent any more fines washing out until the steelwork could be sourced and installed. Stood for a couple of years as the only support, and is now behind the new shuttering. Also heard of it being used to protect formations in Draenen?
 
M

MSD

Guest
A lot of expanding foams contain ghastly chemicals (like dioxins) which can leach into the water. There was a massive environmental scandal in Sweden about this during the building of a railway tunnel. They were using such a foam to grout the wall before lining it. A key problem was that the tunnel was too cold for the foam to set quickly enough and chemicals leached into the groundwater.....resulting in poisoned milk, damage to various endangered species, furious farmers etc. etc. The question of temperature is obviously of important in UK caves. Check the spec carefully of the foam you want to use, because otherwise you might find that it doesn't set properly in average UK cave temperatures.

I also worry about the long-term perspective of using foams. They will presumably break down over time, again leading to possible environmental problems. From a conservation perspective, I think good old cement is a much better alternative, since it's basic make-up and chemistry is pretty similar to limestone and it's reasonably chemically inert. It's hard to imagine any long-term environmental problem arising from a lump of concrete in a limestone cave.

As an aside, what kind of concrete mix can you get away with? Obviously the more sand and aggregate (sourced from within the cave) you use, the more efficient the process is, because you need correspondingly less cement. But too little cement would make the resulting concrete too weak. Obviously it depends a bit on what is available down the cave (a mixture of different grain sizes is better than, for example, pure fine sand). Any thoughts?

Now all you have to do is work out how to get the concrete mixer down there  :-\

Mark
 

AndyF

New member
I think the use of foam is a no-no.

I don't know the facts, and don't want the debate to go this way, but I was told that expanding foam was being used to fill spaces in the dig where the recent death was at Pikehall.

As I say, it's not a subject to go into at the moment, but I think this is a good enough reason to avoid the technique.

Apart from anything its revolting stuff that breaks down in time and with acidic water
 
T

twllddu

Guest
Does anyone have any expereince of "foamed" concrete?  I know it's normally bought ready mixed but perhaps one of our residents cave engineers may have some thoughts.  It certainly looks like the stuff for filling in those scary voids in chokes.
 

Roger W

Well-known member
Foamed concrete seems to be made by mixing concrete using a stabilised foam instead of the usual plain water.  See

http://www.hbp.usm.my/norizal/FoamConcrete/production.htm  and

http://www.hbp.usm.my/norizal/FoamConcrete/lwc1.htm  and

http://www.eabassoc.co.uk/Lightweight%20Foamed%20Concrete.htm

Seems you will need to lug a portable foam generator into the cave, as well as a concrete mixer, as well as lots of small furry rodents in a treadmill to power the necessary generator...

Just a silly question...  I take it that all this cement being lugged into caves is the usual Portland variety...?

For conservation reasons, shouldn't we be using lime mortar?

OK.  Discuss, argue violently, flame...

:coffee:
 
M

MSD

Guest
I suppose lime mortar would be even "closer" to limestone than portland cement. However, I don't think portland cement represents much of an environmental problem. Lime mortar is nasty stuff to work with though, especially in an awkward situation like a cave. Safety glasses and gloves highly recommended....

Mark
 

whitelackington

New member
I went on a bricklaying course once, we used lime morta :sneaky:r, it never completly goes off or so we were tol.
After we had built a brick wall and the instructer had seen it, we had to knock it down, clean off the bricks, then the used mortar was put in a machine and came out the other side like new.
It lasted forever!
 

AndyF

New member
MSD said:
Lime mortar is nasty stuff to work with though, especially in an awkward situation like a cave. Safety glasses and gloves highly recommended....

I'm currently repointing an internal wall with lime mortar, and I can tell you it is totally safe.

The dangerous bit is if you are actually slaking the lime yourself, that is fizzy and hazardous, but if you buy ready mix lime mortar then it is no more than a bit caustic on the hands.

Ready mix lime mortar comes in bags, and doesn't "set" in a fixed time like normal mortar. As long as you keep a lid on the container you can use it over many weeks. it only goes hard when it dries out. It is very nice to use, and is "stickier" than normal mortar.

You can buy it in bags from Calver (Bleaklow) (£14 a 40kg bag)

However, it's not much good for caving because it's heavy to carry if you carry pre-mix mortar down, and you don't want to be slaking it down the cave because of the hazards already mentioned. Also,it needs reasonable dry conditions to go "off". A cave may be so damp/wet that it just stays gooey forever.

Regarding enviormental consideration, don't think there is much in it. You still have to quarry limestone to make it...

Andyf





 

SamT

Moderator
Just to say a big thanks  (y) to Ben Morley, Jim Lister and his mate Adam  :bow: for taking time out of their day to help us shift that cement up to the dig in Bagshawe.  :clap:
I feel even more indebted given the fact that I couldnt accompany them due to an extremely painful hip joint/groin (no honestly - I can barely walk and these neurofen are really not working).

In the end it was one bag of cement divided between 3 darren drums (6.4 litre ones).

One per person.

So once again - cheers.

SamT

 
B

Bog

Guest
THANKS ALSO FROM BOG AND THE OTHER ELDON LADS INVOLVED
WE HAVE SINCE HAULED THE SECOND LOAD IN
ONLY ONE MORE CONSIGNMENT TO FOLLOW
(y)
HOPE THIS RAIN STOPS SOON o_O
 

Stevo

New member
Out of interest has anyone ever used quick drying cement? The type you would pick up in B&Q that claims to set in 2-3 hours. I've also came across cement that sets in 10 minutes anybody ever try this type of concrete?

We're planning to use some cement in one of our digs and it would be great if we could pass the boulder choke on the same trip as it's a long way in just to fill in a few holes. :-[

Stevebus
 

gus horsley

New member
I've used quick-drying cement in the past, but admittedly not for caving.  I'm not sure how good it would be underground because of the increased humidity.  I would suggest to allow at least twice the maximum drying time recommended by the manufacturers and I'd be reluctant to use it in a boulder-holding-up situation because I've heard it doesn't have the same strength as normal cement.
 

gus horsley

New member
Sorry - I just rememebered.  You also need to get rid of all the air bubbles in the cement otherwise it weakens it further.  Normally you'd use a vibrator (no jokes please) to get it to settle.  We used it for footings for girders and it was a bit of a pain.
 
D

Dave H

Guest
Stevo said:
Out of interest has anyone ever used quick drying cement? The type you would pick up in B&Q that claims to set in 2-3 hours. I've also came across cement that sets in 10 minutes anybody ever try this type of concrete?

We're planning to use some cement in one of our digs and it would be great if we could pass the boulder choke on the same trip as it's a long way in just to fill in a few holes. :-[

Stevebus
I've used the postcrete stuff above ground for fixing concrete posts and it sets enough to let go of the post in about a minute. I've dropped the fence panels in almost immediately after that and never had any of the post move, even when I've got the panels jambed at various angles.
I have absolutely no idea how quick it would go off underground, though.
 

Peter Burgess

New member
I'm not sure how good it would be underground because of the increased humidity.

I always thought the setting of concrete was a chemical process, and not a physical 'drying out' one. So the factors that will predominantly affect the setting time are temperature, and composition, and not humidity. Building blokes please correct me if necessary. Rapid setting stuff I suppose has a different composition to normal stuff, and has an accelerator in it to speed up the chemical process?

 

ttxela

New member
I always thought the setting of concrete was a chemical process, and not a physical 'drying out' one. So the factors that will predominantly affect the setting time are temperature, and composition, and not humidity. Building blokes please correct me if necessary. Rapid setting stuff I suppose has a different composition to normal stuff, and has an accelerator in it to speed up the chemical process?

Yep, all true, as far as I remember from college accelerators speed up the initial setting but the resulting material actually takes slightly longer to reach full strength, i.e its strength at 28 days may be less than a "normal" mix, the setting of concrete being a curve that never completely flattens out IIRC. I also seem to remember that accelerators result in the mix giving out slightly more heat when setting.
 

SamT

Moderator
There has been mention of various concrete foams etc.

Well someone recently mentioned a seeming brilliant idea for 'lightweight concrete'.

Vermiculite - readily at garden centers, and used as an aggregate results in a lightweight concrete with a decent integrity - ideal for void filling.

It doens't sound too environmentally obnoxious either. Its basically clay.

wikipedia mentions it as a "commercial application" therefore it *must* be good.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermiculite

Obviously you'd still have to lug the cement/sand in to a remote site, but dry mixed on the surface before hand, it might be a viable solution to boulder choke stabilization.
 
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