Mallions

[wormster]

Thanks for your comments folks.

I'd assumed that when rigging by having the maillions hanging with the gate open (unscrewd) and the gate towards the bottom of the rope allowed for easy placement of said rope in the maillion. When tightend (screwd up) I'll now flip the maillion so that gravity will assist in keeping the maillion closed.

 

[paul]

Thanks for your comments folks.

I'd assumed that when rigging by having the maillions hanging with the gate open (unscrewd) and the gate towards the bottom of the rope allowed for easy placement of said rope in the maillion. When tightend (screwd up) I'll now flip the maillion so that gravity will assist in keeping the maillion closed.

I think it may be that you were told to position the Maillon so that it screws upwards while doing the sleeve up and maybe the bit about flipping them round so that the direction of the thread is downwards, for the reasons given, was missed?

I find that doing the sleeve up by turning the top to the right (so that the sleeve is going upwards) is easier, being right-handed, and screwing the sleeve between thumb and forefinger. If I do this I always flip the maillon around so that the thread is now in a downward direction.

I can reiterate the previous messages (Brains / Cap'nChris) about seeing sleeves unscrew on krabs when set in the wrong direction. I also find the krabs clipped to a belt or sling in the downward direction often have the sleeves done up (annoyingly when you come to remove them!) while those clipped the other way up usually remain undone.

 

[cap n chris]

Do others find their nuts go tight when dangling on a thin rope over a dark, yawning chasm?

:chair:

 

[Dave H]

It is not really a quick question.
If your s.r.t. skills are this lacking you should stick to armchair caving

A little harsh ... at least wormster has seen fit to question it .. and it sounds to me like he can see the problems himself too. Much better than the people who don't think about what they are doing.

"Ask an obvious question and look a little silly for a few minutes - don't ask, and remain ignorant for life" - I just wish I could remember who said that.

Not that I think it was a silly question; as the number of postings has shown.
BTW I do them up as Paul has said, and for the same reason.

 

[Cave_Troll]

i too have come across pitches where the carabiners have undone themselves.

but someone else asked that if you assume the gate came open or was left undone, then with the gate screwing up to tighten, the gap would be at the top and the rope would be less likely to jump out.
Possibly but the maillion would be more likely to jump off the bolt/hanger

 

[darkplaces]

Do others find their nuts go tight when dangling on a thin rope over a dark, yawning chasm?

No but my ass does!

 

[cucc Paul]

Overtight screw gate are an arse especially if someone tightens them when loaded, made worse by wet cold fingers. Its a pet hate  I have a big DMM oear shaped screw gate and even that can be seen moving, reasuuring huh

 

[ianball11]

I make sure that gates on rigging kit face down when rigged and I also try to keep the gate away from the wall so it doesn't rub when someone is climbing.
I can't imagine it would but it seems safer to me to have nothing interfering with the gate when you've decided it is right.

Ian B.

 

[Stu]

With Maillons I'd suggest that screwing them down has more going for it than screwing them upwards - but only by a midges. When they're shut they are shut... period (if they aren't done up, as has already been noted they bend very easily - so done up is done up). However if the vibration can open the sleeve on a crab then it may on a Maillon, and since the thread is vital to the strength, then that's the clincher for me.

With Crab's I'm now thinking if it's an issue at all. Cave Troll suggests that with the locking sleeve top most, the rope is less likely to jump out. But how is that to happen? The gate would have to be open first and what sort of permutation are we talking here for that to happen (I'm not disagreeing, just wondering)? Also if it did happen that the gate opened why would it be any better that if the Crab popped off? This said Crabs do vibrate when loaded with someone ascending/descending and often the sleeve doesn't hold the gate closed - and I've witnessed this when Crab's have been done up both ways. If the conditions prevailed for our rope hopping out scenario to happen then it's going to happen anyway - isn't it?

Are we not in danger of seeing reds under the bed here? If a Crab is loaded correctly then there is very little chance of them coming apart even when the sleeve isn't keeping the gate shut. Maybe we should take a leaf out of our climber cousins and just use stiff sprung snap links 

A bigger bug bear is people who pass a rebelay on ascent, kick the lower rope all over and the leave the Crab perilously at an angle in the bolt just right for cross loading or torquing open!!

 

[Dep]

With a krab the other factor is that if the sleeve gets undone - or more likely someone forgot to do it up, or the spring is not good etc etc. The gate will hang down in the closed position under gravity.
If the krab were the other way up then it would fall open.

With maillons I would have said that all this is good argument for doing them up snuggly (fingers only) - but not tight, and as CnC suggests, checking them periodcally.

Similarly then: If the maillon is to be rigged and left for a long time where it can't be got at easily then is that a good argument for nipping it gently with a spanner or another maillon?

 

[Brains]

IMO the locking sleeve on a krab should only be seen as belt and braces - if you dont trust a standard snap, why trust a locking gate -doesnt give that much more. careful technique counts for far more. Anyway, how come krabs are now accepted rigging gear? When I started it was maillons or nothing, except for deviations which were always snap gates, and as a former climber I always had faith in my snap gates - same gear, why less trust?

 

[darthnoddy]

The Times They Are a-Changin' 

 

[paul]

IMO the locking sleeve on a krab should only be seen as belt and braces - if you dont trust a standard snap, why trust a locking gate -doesnt give that much more. careful technique counts for far more. Anyway, how come krabs are now accepted rigging gear? When I started it was maillons or nothing, except for deviations which were always snap gates, and as a former climber I always had faith in my snap gates - same gear, why less trust?

Well, is it not the norm in climbing to use screwgates for belay anchors and snaplinks for runners?

The reason for the screwgate is not to add strength but to prevent the gate opening if the krab is knocked or vibrated in any way - for example if a fall. While the gate is open - even for a fraction of a second - the krab is much, much weaker. In caving we are using krabs as anchors (except as you say in the case of deviations) so why wouldn't the same arguments apply?

 

[Brains]

Yes I do agree with you Paul, but at that time of day my descriptive powers are weak and my logic not quite what it might be! I have used snaps for main belays, usually doubled and reversed (both gates same side - out - but opening opposite ends) but also occasionaly single when on tight / hanging belays. Mostly on winter routes where I didnt want the gates icing up. Think I was trying to make the point that it always used to be maillons not krabs, probably a cost issue as screwgates require more dosh a 7mm long, and cavers are not famous for parting with cash easily...

 

[Cave_Troll]

i met a bloke down Penygent once who was rigging off single snap gates.

 

[mak]

I started caving (SRT) on mix of crabs and maillons - crabs are quicker and easier to rig with, as well as saving weight.

Think crabs are coming more prevalent these days as they are becoming cheaper. If you shop around and happen to be in the right place at the right time you can buy up lots of cheap crabs for not much more than the cost of maillons.

 

[AndyF]

I stopped using maillons for rigging a few years ago. Too heavy and too slow to rig, and too slow to derig. Cavers have died of boredom waiting for rigging with them. Prone to "nip up" if a bit old requiring a spanner to loosen. 'Orrible things.

Take them down the metal recycling bin and go buy some decent krabs... 

(Retires to flame proof nuclear bunker - again..... : )

 

[mak]

Nah get enough crabs to rig your own trips, but keep some maillons back so when someone asks to borrow rigging kit for a trip you lend them the maillons - that'll teach them a) to but some crabs and b) not to keep asking to borrow your kit 

 

[mak]

Nah get enough crabs to rig your own trips, but keep some maillons back so when someone asks to borrow rigging kit for a trip you lend them the maillons - that'll teach them a) to but some crabs and b) not to keep asking to borrow your kit 

that should read "buy some crabs" - seem to be missing the ability to edit my last post 

 

[paul]

Think I was trying to make the point that it always used to be maillons not krabs

Not me - people I caved with years ago and myself started with krabs (I already had a fair amount from climbing). When I found I needed more, I then bought Maillons.

probably a cost issue as screwgates require more dosh a 7mm long, and cavers are not famous for parting with cash easily...

That is probably why!

A group of us were in Slovenia last year and one of the show caves has a gift shop. I spotted some a nice screwgate in the shop window and could see the price as 3,30 Euros. "Bloody Hell" I thought - "that's cheap!". Since one of our group was just starting to rig and hadn't many krabs, I let him buy every single krab they had - about 14 or so in all.

It was after being charged a lot more than he expected that he found the price tag in the window was partly hidden and the price was actually 13,30 Euros!