Marker Tape

[Peter Burgess]

If you were very familiar with an old mine, and were aware of rocks moving, or timbers cracking, or walls flaking, and that such things were really only apparent to you and your colleagues as you had noticed these changes, how would you let others know, because they might happily visit these features in blissful ignorance of the potential new dangers? Lets say these worrying changes happened on a regular trade route. How would you feel if someone was badly hurt or killed by, say, stacked deads giving way? You, of course had seen some weeks earlier that a timber had shifted, or part of the deads had moved. Others would not know of this unless they too were frequent and observant visitors. The answer surely is to use your best judgement as to whether some visible warning might be appropriate. A well-placed tape might be the easiest and most effective warning measure. Why else do the Police use blue and white tape to keep people off places being investigated? Because it works.

 

[cap n chris]

Well put, Peter.

My guess is there's a few faces reading this which look like they've been sucking a bitter lemon and wasp sting lollypop.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Yes, Chris, probably the same people who resent having white lines painted on the roads to help them drive on the left, and not get hit by oncoming traffic. Or, shock horror, having to stop at a red light.

 

[Hughie]

Yes, Chris, probably the same people who resent having white lines painted on the roads to help them drive on the left, and not get hit by oncoming traffic. Or, shock horror, having to stop at a red light.

I understood, and correct me if I'm wrong, that only a solid white line on the road is to keep one on the left hand side of the road. Otherwise, am I persistantly breaking the law when travelling along with a 3m wide machine, that is usually dangling partly in the "other" side of the road.

 

[Peter Burgess]

I said 'help' not 'force' you to drive on the left.

 

[gus horsley]

Having been responsible for more than my fair share of taping, I think it's a neccessary evil.  It has to be obtrusive otherwise it wouldn't work, and it's better to make someone stop and think as to why it's there than to risk them blithely wandering into delicate formations or dangerous areas.

 

[paul]

Here are some facts:

Talking about the specific example of Ashford Black Marble Mine:

Access is controlled because the landowner (Chatsworth Estates) have stipulated this as a condition of access.

The site is popular with inexperienced groups because it is a relatively easy trip underground.

There are however certain areas where there are dangers which may not be obvious to inexperienced groups. It was also stipulated that these areas should be indicated as dangerous.

Other areas were taped in order to prevent damage to formations, etc.

In both cases the usual red and white plastic tape was used both to indicate a danger and also for conservational purposes.

As part of the DCA's decision to use a more unsightly, thin, orange cord or tape supported by metal pegs a short distance off the ground for conservational marking, the old red and white plastic tape was replaced by this new method but the tape marking dangerous areas was left as the more obvious read and white tape.

If you have any concerns over the matter, you are of course welcome to attend any DCA Coucil Meeting and raise them.

I agree that this is not a perfect solution but without falling in line with the landowner's wishes, there will be no access. And of course, with no access, there would no need for any taping of any kind for any reason...

 

[dunc]

Lets say these worrying changes happened on a regular trade route. How would you feel if someone was badly hurt or killed by, say, stacked deads giving way? etc<SNIP>

Caves and mines are dangerous places, anyone visiting such places should be aware of the risks and be able to assess any risks they may encounter. If they are unable to do this themselves they should either seek assistance from those with more knowledge or stay out.. If you're not prepared to accept an element of risk you're in the wrong game.

I'm sure there are plenty of boulder chokes and stacked deads and a dodgy looking roof or two that could be considered dangerous, shall we all go out and buy a roll of tape and go and mark everything up this Saturday instead of indulging in our usual activities. Just think someone could die and you could have stopped it by placing your bit of tape, don't be ignorant, do your bit..

 

[Peter Burgess]

Dunc

I know full well that most underground sites have dangers in them. I am not so stupid. However, there are places where dangers are NOT appreciated by simple visual observation, unless you know the site very well indeed. A timber supporting a huge pile of deads may show signs of movement that only you may notice, because you pass that way on a regular basis. Not to try to make others aware of this would be negligent and selfish.

Anyone wanting to argue the toss with what I first wrote should first read carefully what it was I actually posted.

 

[Mark]

Yes, Chris, probably the same people who resent having white lines painted on the roads to help them drive on the left, and not get hit by oncoming traffic. Or, shock horror, having to stop at a red light.

There are many roads without white lines and many junctions without traffic lights,

People still drive on the left and stop at the junctions,

Most people can work it out for themselves.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Yes, and most people can easily miss the point. That the lines have a useful purpose in improving safety on the roads, and there would be more accidents without them. Motorway driving at night without lines? Yeah, right.

 

[whitelackington]

Our nanny state, smothered in political correctness and health and safety bollocks is surely choking the initiative out of individuals.

We will soon become a third world country with no original thinkers left,
when we are all dummed down to the lowest common denominator of personal initiative.
In my VHO

We should not need "The Grown Ups to help us cave"
If you can not accept that it may be dangerous, take up a different past time.
Don't make 99.9% of cavers have to put up with helpful do gooders tape & political correctness bollocks

 

[cap n chris]

Don't make 99.9% of cavers have to put up with helpful do gooders tape

Precisely. I've got fed up of being helpful and doing good. From now on I'm going to do evil and be more awkward.

BTW you'll be unsurprised to hear that at the AGM next month I'm standing down from being C&A for CSCC.

 

[Elaine]

That is a shame Chris, I shall be sorry to see you standing down.

Back to the above topic, don't forget; this particular mine has been taped as it was a stipulation of access by the landowners (as Paul says). I would rather still have access and put up with the tape than have access denied. After all, a piece of tape wont keep you back if you feel you want to ignore it.

 

[cap n chris]

W/L, how on earth can you be a Conservation Officer for a club if you don't have any personal respect for taping policy?

 

[paul]

Our nanny state, smothered in political correctness and health and safety bollocks is surely choking the initiative out of individuals.

We will soon become a third world country with no original thinkers left,
when we are all dummed down to the lowest common denominator of personal initiative.
In my VHO

We should not need "The Grown Ups to help us cave"
If you can not accept that it may be dangerous, take up a different past time.
Don't make 99.9% of cavers have to put up with helpful do gooders tape & political correctness bollocks

Have you actually read my post about the reasons for the taping?

Which bit of "...specific example of Ashford Black Marble Mine...the landowner (Chatsworth Estates) have stipulated this as a condition of access...
If you have any concerns over the matter, you are of course welcome to attend any DCA Coucil Meeting and raise them...I agree that this is not a perfect solution but without falling in line with the landowner's wishes, there will be no access. And of course, with no access, there would no need for any taping of any kind for any reason..." don't you understand?

I'm sure those who gave up their time installing the tape as a requirement would rather have gone caving rather than being "helpful do gooders tape & political correctness bollocks" - in fact as I know them personally - I know they would.

 

[Hughie]

Our nanny state, smothered in political correctness and health and safety bollocks is surely choking the initiative out of individuals.

We will soon become a third world country with no original thinkers left,
when we are all dummed down to the lowest common denominator of personal initiative.
In my VHO

We should not need "The Grown Ups to help us cave"
If you can not accept that it may be dangerous, take up a different past time.
Don't make 99.9% of cavers have to put up with helpful do gooders tape & political correctness bollocks

Have you actually read my post about the reasons for the taping?

Which bit of "...specific example of Ashford Black Marble Mine...the landowner (Chatsworth Estates) have stipulated this as a condition of access...
If you have any concerns over the matter, you are of course welcome to attend any DCA Coucil Meeting and raise them...I agree that this is not a perfect solution but without falling in line with the landowner's wishes, there will be no access. And of course, with no access, there would no need for any taping of any kind for any reason..." don't you understand?

I'm sure those who gave up their time installing the tape as a requirement would rather have gone caving rather than being "helpful do gooders tape & political correctness bollocks" - in fact as I know them personally - I know they would.

If requested by the landowner, then I see no option other than to go along with it. Otherwise conservation tape only.

 

[Hughie]

That is a shame Chris, I shall be sorry to see you standing down.

I'd like to echo that.

 

[dunc]

Not to try to make others aware of this would be negligent and selfish.
Anyone wanting to argue the toss with what I first wrote should first read carefully what it was I actually posted.

I did read it carefully, perhaps you can't grasp what I write, so I'll give you a simple question this time.
As you appear so keen on this idea of taping dangerous areas, where would you draw the line at what is dangerous and what is not - IIRC Stake Pot had a boulder movement a while back, should we be running down there now to tape it off or is that a danger people can see? From the same system, both Fall Pot and Stop Pot could be considered dangerous as they are on trade routes, they both have the streamway attacking them at their bases - should we be taping them just in case they go on the move?

 

[dunc]

If requested by the landowner, then I see no option other than to go along with it. Otherwise conservation tape only.

If requested then as much as possible should be done to change the landowners mind, if all else fails then I guess it has to be done.. Lets just hope other landowners don't pick up on this foolish idea.