• The Derbyshire Caver, No. 158

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Marker Tape

D

Dep

Guest
Peter Burgess said:
If you were very familiar with an old mine, and were aware of rocks moving, or timbers cracking, or walls flaking, and that such things were really only apparent to you and your colleagues as you had noticed these changes, how would you let others know, because they might happily visit these features in blissful ignorance of the potential new dangers? Lets say these worrying changes happened on a regular trade route. How would you feel if someone was badly hurt or killed by, say, stacked deads giving way? You, of course had seen some weeks earlier that a timber had shifted, or part of the deads had moved. Others would not know of this unless they too were frequent and observant visitors. The answer surely is to use your best judgement as to whether some visible warning might be appropriate. A well-placed tape might be the easiest and most effective warning measure. Why else do the Police use blue and white tape to keep people off places being investigated? Because it works.

Totally agree with the above points...

The reverse is also true: infrequent visitors should not tape things themselves but instead raise any genuine concerns for both conservation and safety with those who are tasked with looking after a given site.

 

Peter Burgess

New member
It's time to draw a distinction between caves and mines, and between cavers and mine explorers.

Mines being artificial holes in the ground have a very short shelf life compared to most caves. Dangers tend to manifest themselves suddenly and catastrophically (in relative terms).

Cavers on the whole tend to cave for challenge and sport and the attendant dangers. Mine explorers in my experience tend to visit mines because they are interested in the mines and are often as happy, if not happier, to have 'easy' trips if the site is interesting. I would far rather be warned (with tapes or otherwise) when visiting a 'new' mine, and tend to regard caves very differently.

A side effect I think is that often mine explorers make very good cave conservationists - though I could be proved wrong here.

I think this discussion would have more value if limited to safety taping in mines.
 
Mark said:
Peter Burgess said:
Yes, Chris, probably the same people who resent having white lines painted on the roads to help them drive on the left, and not get hit by oncoming traffic. Or, shock horror, having to stop at a red light.

There are many roads without white lines and many junctions without traffic lights,

People still drive on the left and stop at the junctions,

Most people can work it out for themselves.
Doesn't often drive in Bradford then?
 

zomjon

Member
In respect of the Black Marble mines, and DCA following the wishes of the Chatsworth Estate in marking off areas perceived to be more dangerous. It seems even wiser to follow the wishes of the Chatsworth Estate when you remember that it wasn't too long ago that the estate closed off access to Putwell Hill Mine.
 

Mark

Well-known member
Robert Scott said:
Mark said:
Peter Burgess said:
Yes, Chris, probably the same people who resent having white lines painted on the roads to help them drive on the left, and not get hit by oncoming traffic. Or, shock horror, having to stop at a red light.

There are many roads without white lines and many junctions without traffic lights,

People still drive on the left and stop at the junctions,

Most people can work it out for themselves.
Doesn't often drive in Bradford then?

:LOL: :LOL: :LOL:
 

badger

Active member
are we saying dangerous so you cannot not enter, or dangerous enter at your own risk, as stated if you are not frequent vistor a said site you may not neccessarily be aware of dangers even the most careful of persons may miss an obvious sign that movement has happened say a warning before will bring there attention so therefore proceed with more caution, a warning may also help with your decision to your groups experience and ability.
 

gus horsley

New member
badger said:
are we saying dangerous so you cannot not enter, or dangerous enter at your own risk, as stated if you are not frequent vistor a said site you may not neccessarily be aware of dangers even the most careful of persons may miss an obvious sign that movement has happened say a warning before will bring there attention so therefore proceed with more caution, a warning may also help with your decision to your groups experience and ability.

You're probably right.  Marker tape is mostly used to protect formations, so I suppose it's conceivable that an unscrupulous caver might want to cross the tape in order to have a look at the "formations", thereby endangering not only himself but others.  Some sort of warning should be in order in this particular instance.  However, if we put marker tape at everything underground that was deemed dangerous, virtually every cave and mine would have it at boulder chokes, pitches, deep canals, slippery mud, etc.
 
C

cucc Paul

Guest
Humans have been using caves for millions of years. When will our presence be accepted as a natural process in the evolution of the cave system...  :confused:
 

graham

New member
cucc Paul said:
Humans have been using caves for millions of years. When will our presence be accepted as a natural process in the evolution of the cave system...  :confused:

Millions?  :-\
 

Cave_Troll

Active member
Humans have been using the natural resources and atmosphere of this planet for [thousands] of years. When will our presence be accepted as a natural process in the evolution of global warming....

 

Peter Burgess

New member
cucc Paul said:
Humans have been using caves for millions of years. When will our presence be accepted as a natural process in the evolution of the cave system...  :confused:

When another species takes over the planet, since the terms 'artifical' and 'man-made' were invented by humans to distinguish Man's influence on the planet from those of other factors.

 

Elaine

Active member
graham said:
cucc Paul said:
Humans have been using caves for millions of years. When will our presence be accepted as a natural process in the evolution of the cave system...  :confused:

Millions?  :-\

Homo sapiens have been around for about 250 000 yrs and the Homo genus for about 2 million years. Ignore me, I am just being boring and informative!
 

graham

New member
Anne said:
graham said:
cucc Paul said:
Humans have been using caves for millions of years. When will our presence be accepted as a natural process in the evolution of the cave system...  :confused:

Millions?  :-\

Homo sapiens have been around for about 250 000 yrs and the Homo genus for about 2 million years. Ignore me, I am just being boring and informative!

Ah, but when did they first start using caves? ;)
 
D

Dep

Guest
Probably before we even evolved to the point of being 'homo' at all.

There is nothing remarkable about animals in general using caves - wouldn't be at all surprised to find that there were specialised dinosaurs that adapted to life in caves - 'speleosaurus'.
 

Hughie

Active member
graham said:
Anne said:
graham said:
cucc Paul said:
Humans have been using caves for millions of years. When will our presence be accepted as a natural process in the evolution of the cave system...  :confused:

Millions?  :-\

Homo sapiens have been around for about 250 000 yrs and the Homo genus for about 2 million years. Ignore me, I am just being boring and informative!

Ah, but when did they first start using caves? ;)

When it rained, I imagine.
 

Iain Barker

Member
IN REPLY TO MARK, DUNC ETC:

I INSTIGATED THE NEW TAPING AT ASHFORD BLACK MARBLE MINE.

NOW YOU SEEM TO HAVE SOME TROUBLE UNDERSTANDING THIS SO I'LL KEEP IT   
VERY SIMPLE.

UNSIGHTLY TAPE = MINE OPEN TO CAVERS

NO TAPE = MINE CLOSED BY LANDOWNER

ALSO ALL THE LATHKILL SITES, HOLME BANK AND LOADS OF OTHER CAVES AND 
MINES OWNED BY CHATSWORTH WILL BE CLOSED IF WE DO NOT ABIDE BY THE 
AGREEMENT IN PLACE AT THIS TIME. DO YOU REALLY WANT THIS?

AT TIMES IT'S A REAL PAIN IN THE ARSE DRAGGING YOURSELF OUT IN THE RAIN 
AFTER WORK TO WELD UP A GATE OR DRIVE A 50 MILE ROUND TRIP TO CALM DOWN
A FARMER WHO HAS CLOSED THE CAVES ON HIS LAND BECAUSE SOME FOOL
ANNOYED HIM. SPENDING THREE YEARS ON THE NEW GUIDEBOOK FOR BUGGER-ALL
CAN BE A BIND AT TIMES TOO. ON THE FLIP-SIDE, SHOOTING YOUR MOUTH OFF
WITHOUT KNOWING (OR CARING ABOUT) THE FACTS TAKES NEITHER TIME NOR
INTELLECT DOES IT. A BIT OF INSTANT INTERNET INFAMY.

I'M USUALLY ABOUT IN THE PEAK, IF ANY OF YOU WOULD LIKE TO HAVE IT OUT
FACE TO FACE, YOU CAN FIND ME IF YOU REALLY WANT TO.

IAIN BARKER
 

finster

New member
Hear hear and well put, couldn't be any clearer! Sometimes its unavoidable to have to tape, and we just have to accept it! I'd rather have an open cave with tape etc than a closed cave!
 

dunc

New member
Was your Caps-lock stuck?

ON THE FLIP-SIDE, SHOOTING YOUR MOUTH OFF WITHOUT KNOWING (OR CARING ABOUT) THE FACTS TAKES NEITHER TIME NOR
INTELLECT DOES IT. A BIT OF INSTANT INTERNET INFAMY.
Someone can only know the facts when they are given them in some form or another. I don't recall seeing anything in the article in Descent stating that this work was done by request of the landowner (perhaps that fact should have been presented with the article?). In fact the only mention of the landowner comes at the end and whilst I am aware there have been issues with this landowner in the past I didn't realise they imposed such draconian measures.

As I said in a previous post if anyone bothered to read it - if it means the mine stays open then I guess we have to put up with it, doesn't mean I like it though.

Infamy eh, nah, this is a forum where people voice their opinions, we don't all agree and it can get interesting and sometimes heated, thats the way it goes..
 

mrodoc

Well-known member
Watching that speleo avalon presentation reminds what Otter Hole once looked like - and I expect current visitors don't even realise what has been lost!
 
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