Mendip micro management

[menacer]

Its recently occured to me, with the numerous access threads on here, that Mendip appears to be the caving capital of micro management in the uk.

On Mendip, cavers need to have a leader for.

Cuthberts
Reservoir
Charterhouse
Charterhouse Warren
Withyhill
Shatter
Grebe Swallet
Upper Flood
Fernhill
WL
White pit ( first time only)
Pen Park hole
Loxton cavern
St Lukes
Avelines ( archeologicallly protected)

For my own part, I cant believe how ive never noticed/considered just how many mendip caves operate on this system compared to other regions.
I'll be honest and say Its recently  astonished me how I never questioned my own " culture down here" whilst happily questioning Yorkshires permit system.


Otter Hole
Stump Cross
OFD 1 ( recently relaxed?)
Dan yr ogof are some of the caves from other regions.

So help me out here, Could mendip be the most micromanaged caving region in the world maybe?

 

[graham]

Possibly the best conserved caves as well.

 

[badger]

the question must be if there was no restrictions on these caves would they be preserved as well as they are?
is right that they have these restrictions on them.

for the answer is clearly yes as unfortunately not every caver has the same attitude to conservation/preservation as can clearly be seen by the evidence from pictures/forums of where measures have been put in place and have been ignored by cavers.

 

[graham]

Maybe what we should be doing is giving a big thank you to all those volunteer Mendip cavers who freely give of their time to ensure that other folks get to see these wonderful caves.

 

[NigR]

Just to clarify the situation in South Wales:

The OFD 1 leadership requirements were abolished relatively recently when SWCC purchased the land containing the entrance to the cave.

Dan yr Ogof is a showcave and has always had a leader system (in one form or another) dating back to the major extensions made in 1966.

Ogof Capel was initially just gated but had a leadership system introduced by Cambrian Caving Council several years ago.

 

[ah147]

I thought OFD in it's entirety now ran on a permit system, with a large number of other clubs (such as my own) having an annual permit?


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[Ian Adams]

Maybe what we should be doing is giving a big thank you to all those volunteer Mendip cavers who freely give of their time to ensure that other folks get to see these wonderful caves.

.... But they all don't do they ? 

Trips have to suit them, numbers have to suit them, days & times have to suit them

The club I am a member of visits the Mendips every year and has yet to manage to get a trip into one of the micro-managed caves because there was no one available (notwithstanding sufficient (weeks) notice) to "lead" it.

Frankly, I think it is insulting to suggest that cavers will simply dis-respect the beauty of the caves and pay no attention to conservation.

It is also ridiculous to argue that, reducing footfall (gating to the Nth degree) better conserves caves because it obvious stands to reason. However, how many people have been prevented from enjoying those experiences because of the anti-cavers?  You might as well just concrete the entrances then no one can go in at all.

Oh wait ....

 

[NigR]

I thought OFD in it's entirety now ran on a permit system, with a large number of other clubs (such as my own) having an annual permit?

Yes, that is correct.

It is a permit system, not a leader system.

(Although, if you check the access conditions, you will find that you need two separate permits, one for Top Entrance / Cwmdwr and another for OFD 1).

 

[graham]

The club I am a member of visits the Mendips every year and has yet to manage to get a trip into one of the micro-managed caves because there was no one available (notwithstanding sufficient (weeks) notice) to "lead" it.

Does the concept of the 'volunteer' resonate with you in any way?

 

[Ian Adams]

The club I am a member of visits the Mendips every year and has yet to manage to get a trip into one of the micro-managed caves because there was no one available (notwithstanding sufficient (weeks) notice) to "lead" it.

S'funny, don't recall any complaints from your club, or requests for trips even ...

Are you the sole custodian of all the locked caves in the Mendips ?

 

[Peter Burgess]

For my own part, I cant believe how ive never noticed/considered just how many mendip caves operate on this system compared to other regions.

So it's not such a big deal if it's only just occurred to you after so many years!

 

[graham]

The club I am a member of visits the Mendips every year and has yet to manage to get a trip into one of the micro-managed caves because there was no one available (notwithstanding sufficient (weeks) notice) to "lead" it.

S'funny, don't recall any complaints from your club, or requests for trips even ...

Are you the sole custodian of all the locked caves in the Mendips ?

No, but I am involved with some and you said you'd been unable to get into any. Yet I've seen nothing.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Whenever I or members of WCMS have planned a trip, the controlling bodies have always been most obliging. Thanks everyone. Our ONLY bone of contention (more so in the past) has been running around from club to club trying to get Charterhouse CC keys (either nobody in to issue them or no keys available), especially when the caves are walking distance from our base.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Shute Shelve Cavern for the list?  a nice surprising cave considering it's size.

 

[Stupot]

What caves are you having difficulty accessing Jackalpup?

 

[Peter Burgess]

Les W is a member of the club I think Ian is taking about, at least that's what his profile says. If anyone knows the right people to arrange things with, I would have though Les would be one.

 

[bograt]

At the end of the day it all comes down to regional requirements, demands and preferences, each region has met with access problems specific to their area and has addressed them in the "best" way they think appropriate.
There cannot be any denying that cavers and landowners think differently in different caving areas, locally perceived priorities are a key factor in this, I suspect that the personalities of the discoverers and regional access officers (at the time of negotiations) play a significant part also. The variations in constitutions of regional bodies certainly do!

Maybe the CRoW clarification project will focus the BCA C&A group on trying to achieve some standardised recommendations for access management to keep the majority satisfied, (we can all dream :)

Pete Mellors shortly to be released pamphlet on the legal aspects of cave access should certainly help in explaining the situation to landowners, and maybe give some guidance to regional access officers.

Persistent postings to the effect of "This is fact because I rang them and this is what they said" are not going to help, what we need is a documentary statement signed by those in a position to authorise, be it government, local government, property owners or estate managers, etc.

 

[TheBitterEnd]

Can't think why but this just came to mind

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p006vm6j

 

[mrodoc]

The club I am a member of visits the Mendips every year and has yet to manage to get a trip into one of the micro-managed caves because there was no one available (notwithstanding sufficient (weeks) notice) to "lead" it.

If I only went caving on the Mendips once I year I am sure it would have taken me years to visit all the 'micro-managed' caves. I have rarely been to Yorkshire and hence there are a number of major systems I haven't visited because of the permit system there so it is not a Mendip issue.  I just had to be patient. I finally visited White Scar only a couple of years ago for example.  The argument that cavers respect caves sadly is not very helpful. Otter Hole is now over managed in my opinion but that's because it took a while to appreciate the amount of damage occurring and there was an over reaction. A guest leader system would be nice as would be the ability to visit mid week for us retired chaps. I haven't been in there for 30 years now but in 1976 did 6 trips into the far reaches.  I visited the cave several years later and was really upset at the damage - formations coated in mud, delicate formations smashed etc. This was a cave that was supposed to be some difficult that only experienced cavers who respected the cave would visit the extension. We have all  probably accidentally damaged stal at some time or another but some of this stuff wasn't even on the trade route!


This argument has been going on for years.  (Plug alert now coming up). If you  read the latest Belfry Bulletin there is a history of the Chard School Hawks. They felt strongly about being led round caves back in the early 50's (it was GB) and felt gates were anathema to them. After they had made a discovery on two they began to feel differently although reluctantly having witnessed damage to their discovery.

 

[bograt]

Can't think why but this just came to mind

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p006vm6j

-- "Local caves for local people"