Mendip micro management

[cap n chris]

Without facts and figures it is just conjecture - how many trips to, say Giants, Long Churns, or even Goatchurch?

Cannot speak for the first two, but Goatchurch frequently has several groups down each day, to the extent that some leaders no longer use it cos it is too busy.

Goatchurch is best guess maths, ballpark prolly 100/week = 5k/p.a. LC & GH should be easy to get a fix on since the goodwill fees will have an audit trail.

 

[Les W]

LC & GH should be easy to get a fix on since the goodwill fees will have an audit trail.

You think... 

 

[droid]

Thing that gets me, is that there are thousands of caves to go down. Only a small proportion of these caves have leader systems. Even in the Mendip there are plenty of caves you can just rock up and do.

So why the fuss?

Is it THAT much of a problem trying to keep SOME caves in a (relatively) pristine condition?

Maybe then, when the dates coincide and you finally get down a 'leader' cave, you might appreciate it all the more.

And Ian. When my club managet to get down FD, we were given dates. It was up to members to sort out attendance. Try it. You might find that people will then make sure they can make a set date.

 

[graham]

Is much of Mendip's cave management today, the legacy of the likes of Willie Stanton, either directly, such as the caves he dug and looked after, or the ethos passed on to his successors? If so, then I say good job done well.

Some very definitely so. I would recommend that anyone who knew Willie reads his book on human population growth. A fascinating insight into his views on such matters.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Interesting point, Droid. If all we want to "do" is get on down and dirty in a cave, then why does it matter which cave? If you want to see a special cave with a "wow" factor, then you'd think that those keen to see them would appreciate that hurdles are necessary sometimes to keep the "wow" factor there. The "Been there done that" brigade with their cave spotters book will have the careful appreciative element in their ranks, but also the less careful sorts. They exist everywhere, and cavers are not so special as to be free of the idiot element.

 

[Ian Adams]

I have had the privilege of visting a cave which was ?

You have said this a number of times throughout the forum history (perhaps alluding to different caves each time since the subject seems to have been different).

What about the rest of us?  Are we all to be proverbially shafted ? (I suspect the vast majority of ?cavers? don?t even know these caves you allude to even exist). Or are these caves available to just a select few privileged cavers like yourself?

Did you stop for a moment to think ?I will choose not to go in this cave because I am increasing footfall and therefore increasing the risk that something may happen to the cave? or are you exempt from your own protestations ?

Ian

 

[Ian Adams]

And Ian. When my club managet to get down FD, we were given dates. It was up to members to sort out attendance. Try it. You might find that people will then make sure they can make a set date.

.... Did you miss the part where I said we couldn't book it ?

Ian

 

[graham]

French government are currently building a replica of one of them, so in due course, if you cough your pennies you'll get part of the experience.

The site I was alluding to earlier is in private hands, you are not being shafted Ian as you do not have the right to visit the site. Remember that, you do not have the right. Neither do I, but in understanding that fact I managed to get an invitation.

 

[estelle]

In the case of Reservoir, we were told there was no way to ?book it? and we would have to wait and see if anyone could take us on the day (they didn?t). I haven?t complained about that per se but I am using it as an example of micro-management screwing up a well planned caving trip for a bunch of enthusiastic cavers (who value conservation).

http://www.cscc.org.uk/access_guide/cscc_access_guide_view.php?Site=167 - phone number and address for Martin on the CSCC website for booking a trip. That system has been in place all last year and this - edited to add that the CSCC page says Last changed 18/04/2013.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Life would be so tame and uneventful if, not specifically in caving, we could do absolutely everything we wanted to do, when we wanted to do it, and as many times as we wanted to. The odd treat or privilege are the spices that make life enjoyable.

 

[Ian Adams]

The site I was alluding to earlier is in private hands, you are not being shafted Ian as you do not have the right to visit the site.

Fair enough. Don't shout "conservation" then, shout "in private hands"

Ian

 

[droid]

And Ian. When my club managet to get down FD, we were given dates. It was up to members to sort out attendance. Try it. You might find that people will then make sure they can make a set date.

.... Did you miss the part where I said we couldn't book it ?

Ian

Nope. I'm just telling you how OUR club did it last year. Estelle's post clarifies things, I think.

 

[Ian Adams]

Micro-management and money-making all in the same bag. nice.

Still, it didn't work because  there was no "warden" available. We were told in advance that we would have to wait and see if one would be (and there wasn't).

Ian

 

[Peter Burgess]

Oh GOOD GRIEF! It's hardly money-making. Less than buying your guide a pint as a gesture of thanks. You really are something, Ian. I dropped a couple of quid in a tips bucket for the crew of the free waterbus in Portsmouth Harbour yesterday, simply because they were friendly, helpful, good fun couple of people, during the four trips we did in their boat.

Edit: added a totally irrelevant example to show what a nice guy I am. (joke, Ian).

 

[complex]

Still, it didn't work because  there was no "warden" available. We were told in advance that we would have to wait and see if one would be (and there wasn't).

In that case you have been mis-informed. Arranging a trip into the Frozen Deep is very easy - you simply need a leader / warden and the key. Both can be arranged through Martin Grass - contact details on the CSCC web site. In practice, the limiting factor is usually the availability of the key (due to the one trip per day restriction on access), not the availability of one of the 20+ wardens to take visiting cavers into Frozen Deep.

ps: If that counts as a "well planned caving trip" (as described in your earlier post), I hate to think what the caving trips that are less well planned by UCET turn out like.

 

[bat]

I have been very lucky recently to have had access to an out of bounds cave, all above board and correct permission gained, but if this cave was open to all its pristine condition would soon be destroyed as it would be unavoidable the cave being of such a fragile nature, I believe it would be wrong in this case to have open or even lead trips, maybe I might be in a minority but that is how I see it.

So, to understand you correctly, you have visited a cave (albeit fragile and pretty) and, in your opinion, there should be no more trips (lead or otherwise). What then is the point of it even existing if no one is allowed to see it?  How absolutely selfish is that?  Why not just concrete the entrance ? after all, it seems to be the way caving is heading now doesn?t it ?

The trip was to film the place so every one can see it, cavers and non cavers alike. hopefully the film will show just how delicate it is, and why the place needs protecting. When the film is published I think even the most diehard advocates of access for all may appreciate badgers point of view

 

[cap n chris]

Micro-management and money-making all in the same bag. nice.

Still, it didn't work because  there was no "warden" available. We were told in advance that we would have to wait and see if one would be (and there wasn't).

Ian

Well done. Bullet through toes.

 

[Ian Adams]

Micro-management and money-making all in the same bag. nice.

Still, it didn't work because  there was no "warden" available. We were told in advance that we would have to wait and see if one would be (and there wasn't).

Ian

Well done. Bullet through toes.

I have no clue what you mean Chris (other than the obvious you think I have shot myself in the foot).

 

[Ian Adams]

Peter,

The concept of ?charging? for entry to caves/mines in North Wales caused such a furore that it lead to threats of violence, gate removal, entrance back-filling (you name it). The proposed fee (to cover costs) was ?1.00 (half the amount required for Reservoir).

Of course, you will believe that such threats are ?out of order? and I will agree with you completely most especially since I was on the receiving end of them.

At the time, the club (UCET) thought it was perfectly reasonable to levy a small fee for the time, effort and work the club would have to undertake to ?gate? an entrance (landowner wanted to backfill) but the wider community were so appalled at the prospect and so ?outraged? that the club ?dare? to do such a thing (a single pound) that the club ?backed off?.

In doing so, we learned (from experience) that all parties were happy, there was no trouble and access has been available ever since without any problems. I would say there has been little consequence to conservation and, to the contrary, someone (and I don?t know who) has independently taken the trouble to put some conservation tape around a few areas (which has been respected by everyone who has since been in).

I am certainly not advocating that threats and violence should be a reason to concede a ?policy? but I (personally) learned some very valuable lessons (ie. micro-management) throughout that experience.

Ian

 

[droid]

Ian, YOU are the first person I have encountered, either in person or on the net, that has indicated ANY dissatisfaction with the ?2 for Reservoir.

Stop digging. (metaphorically).