Mendip micro management

[mrodoc]

What happened there? I seemed to have quoted myself as Graham. Apologies. Peter Burgess as usual makes very valid points on the issue. There is an enormous variation between regions. Some areas have several caves on vast estates owned by absentee landowners, whilst in others caves can be found on land owned by small farms. The owner of the land's familiarity with caves and caving also can be an issue and in Devon it has become a real problem.

 

[Ian Adams]

Are you the sole custodian of all the locked caves in the Mendips ?

No, but I am involved with some and you said you'd been unable to get into any. Yet I've seen nothing.

I didn?t say we couldn?t get into any, I said we couldn?t get into ?one?.

Whenever I or members of WCMS have planned a trip, the controlling bodies have always been most obliging.

I could not imagine a world (underworld or otherwise) where you would answer any different.

What caves are you having difficulty accessing Jackalpup?

Reservoir  (extra inspired by Mrodoc's efforts and photographs  )

Les W is a member of the club I think Ian is taking about, at least that's what his profile says. If anyone knows the right people to arrange things with, I would have though Les would be one.

Quite right and, to his credit, he has tried very hard and been unable to organise the trip(s) due to no one being available. Of course, we are not members of the WCMS.


Ian

 

[estelle]

What caves are you having difficulty accessing Jackalpup?

Reservoir  (extra inspired by Mrodoc's efforts and photographs  )

Les W is a member of the club I think Ian is taking about, at least that's what his profile says. If anyone knows the right people to arrange things with, I would have though Les would be one.

Quite right and, to his credit, he has tried very hard and been unable to organise the trip(s) due to no one being available.

As a Reservoir leader, i don't remember seeing the usual request for a leader sent around the mailing list but Les did contact me 4 or 5 days before a trip (for a group from north wales, so i assume this is the one you are on about) and ask if either me or my OH as we're both leaders were available, but we were already booked up for that weekend so couldn't help and it was very short notice anyway. Usually if bookings require a leader (as it's often leaders requesting the booking for a trip arranged via them), Martin sends us all a round robin email asking for one. There are about 20 odd leaders and as far as i know, pretty much everyone requesting via Martin has managed to get one or be offered an alternative day - it is certainly not a hard cave to get access to. 

 

[NigR]

I'll be honest and say it has recently astonished me how I never questioned my own "culture down here" whilst happily questioning Yorkshire's permit system.

Shows just how effective modern mind control/conditioning techniques can be if used correctly.

 

[graham]

Ah, I read 'one' in the sense of 'any'. OK.

 

[ditzy 24//7]

its good to conserve the caves but its too hard to get into some places when you can go to numerous other caves without messing around for permission,leaders etc. who are the caves being preserved for of its hard for cavers to visit them?

 

[Peter Burgess]

Ian. For goodness sake - I don't write stuff just because it sounds good, it happens to be true. Your slightly sarky comments don't cut any ice, I am afraid. I have been in Reservoir three or four times in all the time I have been caving. The last time was with two regular contributors to this forum, one sadly has recently passed on. I think you have just been unlucky on the occasion you tried. The one thing about Reservoir is you have to appreciate (or certainly used to) the sensitive nature of its location and management. Keep trying - it's a cave you simply have to see.

If you think WCMS have some kind of privileged position on Mendip, you are so far wide of the mark! We get by, let's say.

 

[badger]

Ian to suggest that all cavers would not descrate/damage caves and therefore all caves should be open access is sadly not true. whilst you (don't know you so can only assume this) and many others do consider the conservation/preservation issues, others do not, as has been highlighted on occasion on this forum.
I have been very lucky recently to have had access to an out of bounds cave, all above board and correct permission gained, but if this cave was open to all its pristine condition would soon be destroyed as it would be unavoidable the cave being of such a fragile nature, I believe it would be wrong in this case to have open or even lead trips, maybe I might be in a minority but that is how I see it.
I have never had any issues on mendip when requesting trips, sometimes I admit it is talking to the right person, and sometimes being in the right place at the right time, can only say keep trying and hopefully you will get your trip. And yes at times (before I came a WCC member) trying to get a CCC key has been frustrating when you arrive at a club to find no one able to issue keys/permits.

 

[droid]

It's Ian doing his usual drama-queen exaggeration job again.

Ian, if your club goes to mendip every year, then you presumably have more than 'weeks' lead time to sort out trips. So use it. Find out when the cave is 'available' and then plan your trip round that.

it isn't rocket science is it?

 

[Simon Wilson]

SNIP>>>
For my own part, I cant believe how ive never noticed/considered just how many mendip caves operate on this system compared to other regions.
I'll be honest and say Its recently  astonished me how I never questioned my own " culture down here" whilst happily questioning Yorkshires permit system.

I'm interested to know what your questions are about "Yorkshire's permit system". By the way, there are several permit systems in the CNCC region and most permitted caves are in Lancashire and Cumbria.

 

[cap n chris]

So help me out here, Could mendip be the most micromanaged caving region in the world maybe?

Has anyone said "Yes" yet?

 

[Peter Burgess]

Does someone here know how much caves are micromanaged in all other parts of the world? That person is the one to provide the answer.

 

[Brains]

Yes, which is why I cant be bothered with the place - only down that way on spur of the moment trips, as most of mine have been reccently....
BTW if one of these leader/permit places had as much footfall as a completely open cave, would the wear be similar? ie, is any result of usage merely being slowed down as opposed to prevented? Without facts and figures it is just conjecture - how many trips to, say Giants, Long Churns, or even Goatchurch?

 

[Peter Burgess]

All the leaders I have ever had trips with took pains to make sure we knew what to be careful of. In that sense, footfall for footfall, the led trips have much less impact that a free for all.

 

[Brains]

Fair comment, and as already been pointed out permitted only trips dont have that luxury - if thats what it is

 

[Ian Adams]

If you think WCMS have some kind of privileged position on Mendip, you are so far wide of the mark!

Mmmmmm, apologies, I didn?t mean to refer to the WCMS as being in a privileged position, I was meaning that you are in a privileged position and, as? a.n.other? member of the WCMS (if I were a member), a person may find access somewhat easier.

Ian to suggest that all cavers would not descrate/damage caves and therefore all caves should be open access is sadly not true.

I haven?t said that. I even agreed that increased footfall would potentially increase ?damage?.  It is reasonable to draw a line in the sand somewhere (and we can argue where for all eternity) but as Menacer has pointed out, the Mendips seems to be a tad on the extreme side (compared to the rest of the UK).

I have been very lucky recently to have had access to an out of bounds cave, all above board and correct permission gained, but if this cave was open to all its pristine condition would soon be destroyed as it would be unavoidable the cave being of such a fragile nature, I believe it would be wrong in this case to have open or even lead trips, maybe I might be in a minority but that is how I see it.

So, to understand you correctly, you have visited a cave (albeit fragile and pretty) and, in your opinion, there should be no more trips (lead or otherwise). What then is the point of it even existing if no one is allowed to see it?  How absolutely selfish is that?  Why not just concrete the entrance ? after all, it seems to be the way caving is heading now doesn?t it ?

I have never had any issues on mendip when requesting trips, sometimes I admit it is talking to the right person, and sometimes being in the right place at the right time

So, you did have problems then lol. What chance do the rest of us have in these situations ?

Ian, if your club goes to mendip every year, then you presumably have more than 'weeks' lead time to sort out trips. So use it. Find out when the cave is 'available' and then plan your trip round that.

it isn't rocket science is it?

Actually, it does seem as complicated and I expect every other club has the same issues when planning an away trip. The first priority is finding a date when the ?most? people who want to go are able to (I obviously realise not everyone will be able to go every time). Once a date(s) has been organised (well in advance) the club then tries to ?book? the cave(s).  I am sure that is similar for most clubs.

In the case of Reservoir, we were told there was no way to ?book it? and we would have to wait and see if anyone could take us on the day (they didn?t). I haven?t complained about that per se but I am using it as an example of micro-management screwing up a well planned caving trip for a bunch of enthusiastic cavers (who value conservation).

Ian

 

[graham]

Without facts and figures it is just conjecture - how many trips to, say Giants, Long Churns, or even Goatchurch?

Cannot speak for the first two, but Goatchurch frequently has several groups down each day, to the extent that some leaders no longer use it cos it is too busy.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Mmmmmm, apologies, I didn’t mean to refer to the WCMS as being in a privileged position, I was meaning that you are in a privileged position and, as” a.n.other” member of the WCMS (if I were a member), a person may find access somewhat easier.

You flatter me! I may be quite visible here, but in the real world, I and WCMS are pretty of no more consequence than the average active club. One SWCC member of some years, (SWCC are landlord for our cottage), after some five years of our tenancy, had formed the impression that the Wessex had moved in as their tenant club!

 

[graham]

I have been very lucky recently to have had access to an out of bounds cave, all above board and correct permission gained, but if this cave was open to all its pristine condition would soon be destroyed as it would be unavoidable the cave being of such a fragile nature, I believe it would be wrong in this case to have open or even lead trips, maybe I might be in a minority but that is how I see it.

So, to understand you correctly, you have visited a cave (albeit fragile and pretty) and, in your opinion, there should be no more trips (lead or otherwise). What then is the point of it even existing if no one is allowed to see it?  How absolutely selfish is that?  Why not just concrete the entrance ? after all, it seems to be the way caving is heading now doesn?t it ?

I have had the privilege of visting a cave which was discovered prior to the First World War, over the past century less than a thousand people hve been down there. If it had not had the degree of protection that it has then it would not have survived anywhere like the way it has. An extreme case, maybe, but sometimes protection is important.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Is much of Mendip's cave management today, the legacy of the likes of Willie Stanton, either directly, such as the caves he dug and looked after, or the ethos passed on to his successors? If so, then I say good job done well.