Merged topic - Spit and BP bolt removal/replacement

[SamT]

AAARARRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHH 

I'm not suggesting using an 18mm hole for the BP bolts.  Nobody needs to test BP bolts in an 18mm hole.

This is just about purely widening the entrance to the hole slightly to allow for the fact that the BP bolts widen just before the eye.  This makes them far easier to place as they don't get stuck when your testing for fit, before applying any resin. An issue that is putting Andrew off placing any more.

 

[damian]

I'm not suggesting using an 18mm hole for the BP bolts.  Nobody needs to test BP bolts in an 18mm hole.

This is just about purely widening the entrance to the hole slightly to allow for the fact that the BP bolts widen just before the eye.  This makes them far easier to place as they don't get stuck when your testing for fit, before applying any resin. An issue that is putting Andrew off placing any more.

The problem with doing this is that each Region has an approved procedure which, for most regions is extremely prescriptive and to install anything in a method which is contrary to this would make it rather difficult for BCA / the Region in court if the need every arose.

Personally I am very unhappy at the amount of hammering of a BP anchor I have to do to get it into a 16mm hole. I am no engineer but it cannot be good for the anchor!

 

[Simon Wilson]

AAARARRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHH 

I'm not suggesting using an 18mm hole for the BP bolts.  Nobody needs to test BP bolts in an 18mm hole.

This is just about purely widening the entrance to the hole slightly to allow for the fact that the BP bolts widen just before the eye.  This makes them far easier to place as they don't get stuck when your testing for fit, before applying any resin. An issue that is putting Andrew off placing any more.

SamT,
You have made it clear what you are describing. But any anchor needs to be tested in 18mm holes if it is going to be used to replace DMM anchors in the same hole. For those who might not know, DMM anchors fit in an 18mm hole and BP anchors are supposed to fit in a 16mm hole.

It seems to me that if installers are having problems installing BP anchors in 16mm holes, making their own ad hoc solutions and not adhering to a uniform procedure then there is a failure in the system. Is there a specified procedure for installing the BP anchor? If there isn't then there should be and it should be the same procedure that has been established to work properly during testing.

 

[Mark Wright]

I've never installed one of the new bolts but I do have one of the twisted types on my windowsill at work. I got it from Bob Dearman a good few years ago. I assume they are similar.

If you can't get the bolt into a 16mm hole without belting it with a hammer then I'm with Damian. That can't be right. I can't imagine they were designed to have an interference fit. 

There could be inconsistencies in the manufacture of the bolt, assuming you didn't have to hammer the original test bolts into a 16mm hole.

The holes might not be being drilled consistently.

To be honest I don't think many people would be able to drill a 16mm hole with a heavy cordless drill, possibly in one hand, at arms length whilst dangling in a harness. Its a long hole to be able to accurately drill with your feet on the ground.

Simons 12mm hole is very appealing??? Ooo errr

Mark

 

[cavermark]

The problem with doing this is that each Region has an approved procedure which, for most regions is extremely prescriptive and to install anything in a method which is contrary to this would make it rather difficult for BCA / the Region in court if the need every arose.

Is there really much likelihood of ever ending up in court over bolts in caves?
Especially if tested with a pull rig after installation (I know that's a major ball ache in some caves but it's only the same size/weight as an sds drill)

 

[bograt]

Then again, there's always the issue of wear on the drill bit??

 

[Mark Wright]

I assumed they would check that before they went underground as part of the installation procedure???

Mark

 

[Bob Mehew]

Is there really much likelihood of ever ending up in court over bolts in caves?
Especially if tested with a pull rig after installation (I know that's a major ball ache in some caves but it's only the same size/weight as an sds drill)

The testing you reference was stopped by BCA so technically it is being done against BCA's position.  (It is very easy to break the surface resin as the anchor head will flex unless the test load is applied in a particular way which is not a simple axial pull.)  I think only DCA do test.

To be honest I don't think many people would be able to drill a 16mm hole with a heavy cordless drill, possibly in one hand, at arms length whilst dangling in a harness. Its a long hole to be able to accurately drill with your feet on the ground.

One feature of this system is that the hole must NOT be smooth.  The irregularities in the hole make for a mechanical interlock between resin and rock so that if the bond should fail (and they have in a few cases), the block of resin and anchor can still resit a reasonable pull.

AAARARRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHH 

Sorry SamT I should have indicated that I was suggesting doing the 18mm hole work so BCA did not have a panic on its hands when the first demand to replace an Eco with a BP came in.  (Hopefully not in the next few weeks.)

Andrew's concern is not size of hole, it the simple and rather uncomfortable fact that testing BP anchors show many spall the hole edge making it doubtful if one can reuse the hole location.  Eco anchor came out without doing that.  That was something I for one had not given much thought too.  :-[  If we can't show most BP anchors can be got out without destroying the hole location, then perhaps we should revisit whether we should be using BP anchors on conservation grounds.  OK it may not be my life time when they wear out, but conservation is not just about the next 40 years or so.

Then again, there's always the issue of wear on the drill bit??

The number of reports of difficulty getting the anchor into holes suggest it is not drill bit but variation in anchors.  We have not thought (so far) it necessary to measure the anchor 'twist' diameter.

 

[SamT]

From my experience. . And I've installed dozens now both in caves and on climbing routes is that its only the last inch or so, near the eye that gets stuck.  and I agree with Andrew that its a grand royal pain in the ass when you insert the bolt to check the  depth/fit etc and it gets stuck.  Then also then requiring a good tap (nothing more than that in my experience) to set it in the resin. Using the 18mm bit to widen the entrance to the hole has negated all these issues. 

Anyhow.. lifes just too short to carry on going round in little circles on here.  I'll quite happily carry on installing the BCA supplied BP bolts for you all to enjoy until they run out and something else comes along. 

Huge Props to those who have expended huge amounts of time and effort getting us to where we are now and those pushing the progress and development for the future for the wider community.

 

[Simon Wilson]

Is there really much likelihood of ever ending up in court over bolts in caves?

Anyone who would make, test or install an anchor thinking that there is not "much likelihood of ever ending up in court over bolts in caves" would not be a suitable person to have anything to do with 'bolts' or anchors.

 

[Hammy]

But what about titanium bolts?

These only need a 14mm hole - 'minimum expected life of 50 years and are expected to last for generations'

http://www.titanclimbing.com/Titan%20Climbing%20products%20-%20Eterna%20Titanium%20glue%20in%20bolt.html

 

[cavermark]

Is there really much likelihood of ever ending up in court over bolts in caves?

Anyone who would make, test or install an anchor thinking that there is not "much likelihood of ever ending up in court over bolts in caves" would not be a suitable person to have anything to do with 'bolts' or anchors.

I was implying that the rigorous thinking, discussion and testing of sutiable eco type hangers that has gone on, and the careful procedures and installation that the regional bodies carry out with them, is unlikely to lead to a failure. If there is a failure it is likely to be part of a rigging system that is backed up so will not be catastrophic.
I would have thought the variables involved in installation are more likely to be the cause of any failures and so taking the manufacturer to court is unlikely (but I am only an interested outsider speculating... )

Has there been a court case then involving bolts (excuse my ignorance)?

 

[Antwan]

Titanium is only a quarter as hard as steel, so I have a slight doubts about actual wear and tear over 50years, especially as a sports climb lower off.

You could always buy one and run  ropes through it every time they get washed?

 

[Hammy]

Titanium is only a quarter as hard as steel, so I have a slight doubts about actual wear and tear over 50years, especially as a sports climb lower off.

You could always buy one and run  ropes through it every time they get washed?

http://www.titanclimbing.com/Titan%20climbing%20products%20-%20forged%20titanium%20anchor%20rings.html

http://www.titanclimbing.com/ram's-horns.html

 

[Simon Wilson]

Is there really much likelihood of ever ending up in court over bolts in caves?

Anyone who would make, test or install an anchor thinking that there is not "much likelihood of ever ending up in court over bolts in caves" would not be a suitable person to have anything to do with 'bolts' or anchors.

I was implying that the rigorous thinking, discussion and testing of sutiable eco type hangers that has gone on, and the careful procedures and installation that the regional bodies carry out with them, is unlikely to lead to a failure. If there is a failure it is likely to be part of a rigging system that is backed up so will not be catastrophic.
I would have thought the variables involved in installation are more likely to be the cause of any failures and so taking the manufacturer to court is unlikely (but I am only an interested outsider speculating... )

Has there been a court case then involving bolts (excuse my ignorance)?

You contradicted yourself there. The second part I underlined is correct but the first part appears to be under question.

The installation procedure for BP anchors should have been proved during testing, it should be specified in the installation manual and the latest version of the manual should have been given to all installers. I expect that will have been done so why are two installers having problems and disagreeing in this thread about how to install them?

 

[Mark Wright]

Bob suggested;

'One feature of this system is that the hole must NOT be smooth.  The irregularities in the hole make for a mechanical interlock between resin and rock so that if the bond should fail (and they have in a few cases), the block of resin and anchor can still resit a reasonable pull.'

How are installers taught to drill an 'irregular' hole?

If I were assessing a candidate on an industrial bolt installation course and they drilled an 'irregular' hole they are likely to fail their exam.

Mark

 

[Simon Wilson]

Bob suggested;

'One feature of this system is that the hole must NOT be smooth.  The irregularities in the hole make for a mechanical interlock between resin and rock so that if the bond should fail (and they have in a few cases), the block of resin and anchor can still resit a reasonable pull.'

How are installers taught to drill an 'irregular' hole?

If I were assessing a candidate on an industrial bolt installation course and they drilled an 'irregular' hole they are likely to fail their exam.

Mark

I think you're being a little unfair on Bob. He didn't say that installers should or are taught to drill irregular holes. He said, "One feature of this system is that the hole must NOT be smooth". That is correct and one thing that is specified is that diamond drills should not be used because they produce a smoother hole. I can't remember exactly where that is said but I could find it if I had to.

I have plans to make tool for producing undercuts in holes but it is down my things-to-do list.

 

[Mark Wright]

Simon,

I wasn't having a go at anyone.

Its just the concept of an irregular hole that I was questioning. I understand the idea of having a 'rough surfaced' hole but I was just interested in what installers are actually taught during the course to achieve this. I assume from your comments that one way this is achieved is by not using a diamond drill. What is/are the other way/s of achieving an irregular hole?

I'm just interested thats all.

Mark

 

[cavermark]

I think I have confused myself here too!

Suffice to say I have the greatest respect for the people putting a lot of time and effort into discussing, researching and installing the anchors for the rest of the caving community  :bow:

 

[SamT]

Installers are "taught" to just drill a hole with a 16mm sds drill bit, just like anyone else might.

The result will be irregular,  maybe not to the a naked eye, but its is thought that the diameter of the hole will vary by small amounts along its length and be rough.  This provides enough of a 'key' that the resin can really stick to it and I believe that its the variances in diameter that mean even when the rock resin interface has failed and the bolt is 'loose' (as has happened on occasion due to holes not being cleaned of dust well enough) they still require huge forces to extract.

It seems to me that if installers are having problems installing BP anchors in 16mm holes, making their own ad hoc solutions and not adhering to a uniform procedure then there is a failure in the system. Is there a specified procedure for installing the BP anchor? If there isn't then there should be and it should be the same procedure that has been established to work properly during testing.

You over exaggerate when you say 'having problems installing'.

As a foot note to my comments re using an 18mm bit at the start. It occurred to me that I've not used that technique on a bolt underground yet.  I started doing this summer on climbing routes.  I've yet to place an underground bolt yet this winter.
I shall refrain using the 18mm trick until the testing has been done!