Merged topic - Spit and BP bolt removal/replacement

[martinm]

Could be something to consider - I bet some git would just pinch them if using them as "fixed anchors" in popular caves though...

These aren't popular caves Mark, that's the point. And of course they could still be glued in place, but that sort of spoils the whole idea. These anchors will need replacing much more often cos they are under water for much of the year.

I'm quite happy for the above river level ones to be replaced with resin anchors and indeed have been asking for this to be done for several years, but everybody has been too busy doing caves further North as usual... 

 

[paul]

Could be something to consider - I bet some git would just pinch them if using them as "fixed anchors" in popular caves though...

These aren't popular caves Mark, that's the point. And of course they could still be glued in place, but that sort of spoils the whole idea. These anchors will need replacing much more often cos they are under water for much of the year.

I'm quite happy for the above river level ones to be replaced with resin anchors and indeed have been asking for this to be done for several years, but everybody has been too busy doing caves further North as usual... 

Possibly because "These aren't popular caves " and therefore sit sowewhat lower down in the list of caves to be done?

 

[cavermark]

Sorry, I meant the Excalibur type bolts could be considered instead of resin bolts for any given cave; but that they would be likely get pinched if said cave was popular...

 

[pwhole]

I've just bought a box of Excalibur bolts for a site specifically because they'll need to be removed again later, some (hopefully) to be resin-bolted properly at a later date - I'm quite pleased this option is available as it means we can use the 'best' spots to rig from without ruining them, rather than rigging around the best spots and making things much more difficult for ourselves. That said, even empty holes isn't ideal, so will still aim to use as few as possible, as it is 'kind of' virgin territory. Haven't used any yet, but I'm looking forward to trying them out. Wasn't sure how long they'd last in a wet environment, but it sounds like you're having no problems so far Mel.

 

[cavermark]

These may often have been placed in a position for short term gratification rather than any long term considerations

Now we have the internet I guess that won't go on so much? 

 

[cavermark]

pwhole - they've been used quite a lot in rope access now - I've been surprised that they have passed pull tests at 7KN, even in soft looking sandstone or brickwork.
If placed well I guess they should be good until the bolts corrode. Obviously, if frequently removed and replaced the thread in the holes will wear and reduce holding power.

 

[SamT]

Im a big fan of the exalibers. I've used them in baggers for short term stuff.  That's turned into long term as I've not been back yet to replace them. But it will be nice to be able to just unscrew them and ream out the hole for a resin.

 

[martinm]

yeah, hole wear would be an issue but the ones in the Manifold have never been replaced. I use M8s for deviations then M10s for main belays, usually in pairs obviously. If they were being screwed and unscrewed a lot and hole became worn just upgrade to the next size up, ie:- M12s. Beyond that then yes, you'd to replace them with resin bolts... or expanding anchors like Rawlbolts, but obv. they stress the rock so have to be placed carefully...

 

[Simon Wilson]

... got fed up of waiting for DCA installers to install p-bolts.

The full extent to which people got fed up of waiting and decided to install anchors outside the BCA anchor scheme is yet to come out.

I suspect that the various regional councils can only operate as fast as the volunteers who install the bolts do. Most of whom have jobs and lives to fit dragging drills and batteries into the deepest parts of the uk around. I don't think it is a failing of the BCA, more volunteers are required surely?
The volunteers who bolt for the DCA seem to get thinks done quickly.

I don't think you appreciate what I said. There are a number of difficult potholes that are infrequently visited, that are the places where we would least want to have an accident and which have never had resin anchors installed under the BCA scheme. In these holes people would have to rely on 20, 30 or 40 year-old Spits or provide their own alternative. There have been people willing to install resin anchors but they have had no anchors available under the BCA scheme.

 

[cavermark]

Simon - Would excalibur type bolts be a good interim measure for some of the sites you are referring to?  The holes can then be reused for whatever resin anchor gets decided upon and becomes available....

It does seem like things are moving forward now...

 

[SamT]

Mark.. there are plenty of BP bolts available. BP bolts have 'been decided upon' already.  There only real issue with them that anyone can come up with is that they might be quite tricky to remove (oh the irony).  Given my comments with regards the garlands bolts.. I cant see a well placed bolt BP bolt in quaking pot is going to need replacement ........ ever.
The same goes for the bolts in mels caves. 

I am failing to see that there is a big issue here.

 

[Antwan]

Agree with you Sam, place the right stuff first time then 20 years later there's a decent anchor and not a rusty spit.

 

[andrew]

Yes put the Right bolt in first time. Not convinced by bp, it is meant to go in a 16mm hole, but I and other installers have found, even with a brand new bit, it really does not fit in without a hammer, then difficult to get out, so testing hole is not easy. Would not be good in Quaking.

As for wear, the anchor on Swildons 20 was replaced as it loose, many years ago. Showed signs of wear, not from rope, but mailion used for the ladder - proving Swildons is the centre of the universe not Garlands pot 

 

[Simon Wilson]

Mark.. there are plenty of BP bolts available. BP bolts have 'been decided upon' already.  There only real issue with them that anyone can come up with is that they might be quite tricky to remove (oh the irony).  Given my comments with regards the garlands bolts.. I cant see a well placed bolt BP bolt in quaking pot is going to need replacement ........ ever.
The same goes for the bolts in mels caves. 

I am failing to see that there is a big issue here.

SamT,
You are content that BP bolts have been decided upon. Technology advances all the time and there is now another anchor on the scene. It's just things moving on as they will and no big issue.

Over the past few years many of the more difficult potholes in the Dales have been fitted with an assortment of stainless through bolts and various types of resin anchors. If the big pitch in Quaking hasn't been done and a team of fit young tigers take on the challenge and if they choose to use IC resin anchors, they will be using anchors that drop smoothly into 12mm holes and they will be able to install three of them using a lightweight drill and one 14.4 volt battery.

http://www.resinanchor.co.uk/

 

[SamT]

Not convinced by bp, it is meant to go in a 16mm hole, but I and other installers have found, even with a brand new bit, it really does not fit in without a hammer, then difficult to get out, so testing hole is not easy. Would not be good in Quaking.

Thats why I start the hole with an 18mm bit for the first 3/4 inch or so, then switch to a 16mm bit. Negates all issues with getting the bolt stuck.

As for wear, the anchor on Swildons 20 was replaced as it loose, many years ago. Showed signs of wear, not from rope, but mailion used for the ladder - proving Swildons is the centre of the universe not Garlands pot 

What was it replaced with out of interest.

You are content that BP bolts have been decided upon.

I am, and the point I was making is that they are freely available for installation.  It seems to be that foks have the notion that there are still no bolts available, which is certainly not the case. 

Technology advances all the time and there is now another anchor on the scene. It's just things moving on as they will and no big issue.

Totally agree, I don't have a problem with product development.

they will be using anchors that drop smoothly into 12mm holes and they will be able to install three of them using a lightweight drill and one 14.4 volt battery."

Good stuff.

 

[andrew]

That's why I start the hole with an 18mm bit for the first 3/4 inch or so, then switch to a 16mm bit. Negates all issues with getting the bolt stuck.

Technically, that has not been tested, I asked if BP could use 18mm holes, and was informed, that as it had not been tested, they could not. (This was a year ago, so might have changed now)

What was it replaced with out of interest.

Anther DMM. As this was the original spit hole, it is the third anchor in the same spot.

 

[cavermark]

Technically, that has not been tested, I asked if BP could use 18mm holes, and was informed, that as it had not been tested, they could not. (This was a year ago, so might have changed now)

Surely if the individual placements pass a test with a pull rig that is good enough?  - they are then highly unlikely to fail, they will be backed up anyway, if they work loose they can be rectified, we are unlikely to return to the manufacturer about it?

 

[SamT]

Andrew - just confirm - I only use the 18mm bit for the first 15mm or so - effectively the same as reaming out the neck of the hole to allow for the widening of the P bolt as it goes from twists to straight just before the eye.

 

[Bob Mehew]

Technically, that has not been tested, I asked if BP could use 18mm holes, and was informed, that as it had not been tested, they could not. (This was a year ago, so might have changed now)

Surely if the individual placements pass a test with a pull rig that is good enough?  - they are then highly unlikely to fail, they will be backed up anyway, if they work loose they can be rectified, we are unlikely to return to the manufacturer about it?

I am not aware of results from a test program which would support the use of an 18mm hole for BP anchors.  I am NOT saying you can't use an 18mm hole, indeed there is some information around suggest that you will be able to.  But we need evidence to justify moving away from the anchor manufacturer's recommended installation procedure of using a 16mm hole. 

The problem is the observation that BP anchors frequently showed the rock surface around the hole spalling during the extensive testing program undertaken by CNCC Tech Group.  That may well be sufficient to mean the location can't be reused.  Andrew and I will be doing some tests this weekend to see if this spalling can be minimised.

Also I was informed this morning that around one hundred BP anchors are in BCA's hands available for issue.  (I think that also implies that over three hundred BP anchors are out there either placed or waiting to be placed in cave.)  No one raised a need for more BP 316 anchors at the last E&T meeting on 2nd November.

 

[Bob Mehew]

Also I was informed this morning that around one hundred BP anchors are in BCA's hands available for issue. 

Sorry that should be 50ish.