Metal Steps KMC
- Thread starter Balmerfish
- Start date
CNCC
Well-known member
Hello everyone
Needless to say that the CNCC have been following this thread and have had discussions outside of it too. We have reason to believe that these metal 'steps' were installed with the best of intentions and possibly out of a misunderstanding. There is certainly no need for any witch hunt. The installer has kindly agreed to perform the necessary work to remove them and repair the damage as best as possible if this is the wish of the CNCC Committee.
The general feeling within the CNCC Officers at the moment is that they should be removed; based mostly on the grounds that they are not stainless steel and may, in time, result in a rust streak down the cave walls which would be most undesirable.
There will however be a discussion on this at the 13th October CNCC Committee meeting (9:30am Hellifield Institute). If you have any opinions that you would like to voice you are welcome to come along or to contact me directly. If the feeling of this meeting is to remove them then we will ask the installer to do so and we will offer advice on filling the holes to make them unnoticeable.
Of course the CNCC cannot claim to be the arbitrator of any matters relating to the installation of fixed aids in caves; nor do we have any authority to allow or refuse permission for such installations. In fact, we specifically cannot endorse any fixed aids other than stainless steel resin anchors installed in accordance with BCA policy.
We are however always happy to offer advice or the use of our meetings as a friendly face-to-face discussion forum for any such matters. We encourage anyone considering installing anything into cave walls (anchors, staples, pegs etc) to get in touch with us to discuss first so we can offer conservation advice and maybe help identify alternatives. In particular, for anchors on popular routes, we may even suggest getting this done under the CNCC anchor scheme (for which consumable costs can be reclaimed) which means we can publish them on our topos for other people to use
Matt Ewles, CNCC Secretary
Needless to say that the CNCC have been following this thread and have had discussions outside of it too. We have reason to believe that these metal 'steps' were installed with the best of intentions and possibly out of a misunderstanding. There is certainly no need for any witch hunt. The installer has kindly agreed to perform the necessary work to remove them and repair the damage as best as possible if this is the wish of the CNCC Committee.
The general feeling within the CNCC Officers at the moment is that they should be removed; based mostly on the grounds that they are not stainless steel and may, in time, result in a rust streak down the cave walls which would be most undesirable.
There will however be a discussion on this at the 13th October CNCC Committee meeting (9:30am Hellifield Institute). If you have any opinions that you would like to voice you are welcome to come along or to contact me directly. If the feeling of this meeting is to remove them then we will ask the installer to do so and we will offer advice on filling the holes to make them unnoticeable.
Of course the CNCC cannot claim to be the arbitrator of any matters relating to the installation of fixed aids in caves; nor do we have any authority to allow or refuse permission for such installations. In fact, we specifically cannot endorse any fixed aids other than stainless steel resin anchors installed in accordance with BCA policy.
We are however always happy to offer advice or the use of our meetings as a friendly face-to-face discussion forum for any such matters. We encourage anyone considering installing anything into cave walls (anchors, staples, pegs etc) to get in touch with us to discuss first so we can offer conservation advice and maybe help identify alternatives. In particular, for anchors on popular routes, we may even suggest getting this done under the CNCC anchor scheme (for which consumable costs can be reclaimed) which means we can publish them on our topos for other people to use
Matt Ewles, CNCC Secretary
Balmerfish
Member
Many thanks, for clarity on this matter - much appraicated.
Adele
Adele
Simon Wilson
New member
I just read a post on Cavers of Facebook which said, "An adventure company has destroyed the charm of a beautiful cave. Now full of graffiti. Catalunya, Spain." It accompanied a photo of some metal via ferrata style steps in a cave. It reminded me of KMC and this thread.
I've been for a look in KMC and the steps are still there. There is one on its own and then a series of five close together. They are huge - made of 16mm reinforcing bar and identical to ones seen on the via ferratas created by 'adventure companies'.
I've been for a look in KMC and the steps are still there. There is one on its own and then a series of five close together. They are huge - made of 16mm reinforcing bar and identical to ones seen on the via ferratas created by 'adventure companies'.
langcliffe
Well-known member
Simon Wilson said:
According to the provisional minutes of the above mentioned CNCC meeting: "Action: Matt Ewles to contact the installer to inform them that the CNCC wishes for these to be removed and separately discuss with Simon Wilson.". So you should know all about it!
cap n chris
Well-known member
Is there a difference between people going caving and people going caving, now?
I understand an initial attempt by the installer to remove them failed. Simon was due to be consulted for his advice but that may not have taken place yet. At that October meeting the CNCC committee felt they should be removed on conservation grounds. However, that process may not be as simple as it sounds.
JoshW
Well-known member
as a side note nobody had posted up outside of this thread that they had seen them since they'd been put in place, so either:
1) nobody has been down KMC - almost certainly false
2) people have seen them and found this thread so not started a new one - based on how little people tend to use the search function, i guess unlikely
3) people haven't seen them or thought them obtrusive enough to kick up a fuss about...
1) nobody has been down KMC - almost certainly false
2) people have seen them and found this thread so not started a new one - based on how little people tend to use the search function, i guess unlikely
3) people haven't seen them or thought them obtrusive enough to kick up a fuss about...
langcliffe
Well-known member
JoshW said:
There is a fourth possibility - people may be content with the decisions made by the CNCC in October, and are allowing them to be enacted in a time frame compatible with the available volunteer resources. There is no point in continually banging on about the issue.
Simon Wilson
New member
There was a gap of nearly five months since anybody commented on this thread and nearly five months since the installer agreed to remove the steps. I think five months is more than a reasonable length of time to wait before asking questions. I'm sure most cavers would agree that they should be removed ASAP. The only people who might want them to remain are a few people in the adventure business.
Since the installer has said they will be removed, I'm waiting to see how he proposes for it to be done.
Since the installer has said they will be removed, I'm waiting to see how he proposes for it to be done.
This has not been forgotten about. The original installer and myself failed to remove the staples with levers and car jacks. The staples are too flexible. Therefor I set up a test bed with some left over staples in my yard at work. We have been trying alternative methods including sawing off the staple at 75 mm and cutting a thread onto the end. We were able to withdraw the fixed end using a nut and oversized socket as a spacer. However, the test was nullified when we noticed the test bed substrate had cracked in the process. Because the re bar is distinctly oval shaped it is difficult to initiate the thread cutting and the nut only bites on a fraction of the circumference of the re bar.( we do not have access to a full range of die sizes The amount of work involved with this technique ( performed whilst dangling from a rope ) is probably not worth pursuing any further.
Another alternative is using an anchor puller/tester with a linkage clipped through a drilled hole in the sawn off staple. The siting of some of the staples on a thin edge profile of limestone would make the use of a tripod puller very difficult.
We have practiced sawing the staple off flush to the wall and treating it with antioxidant and covering it with grey anchor resin. Takes just minutes and is looking like the most realistic option at present.
I can assure everyone that I am not an engineer with any talent in this area of work. However, I am sure we can avoid making things worse by continuing to think things through and complete our experiments before tackling the offending items in KMC.
The original installer would love to be named and shamed on UK Caving and sell the film rights via his/her publicity agent, but I will not give him/her the satisfaction. There is no witch/wizard hunt required.
I like to think that we are able to keep a sense of perspective/proportion in our relations within northern caving.
Andrew Hinde
Chair CNCC.
Another alternative is using an anchor puller/tester with a linkage clipped through a drilled hole in the sawn off staple. The siting of some of the staples on a thin edge profile of limestone would make the use of a tripod puller very difficult.
We have practiced sawing the staple off flush to the wall and treating it with antioxidant and covering it with grey anchor resin. Takes just minutes and is looking like the most realistic option at present.
I can assure everyone that I am not an engineer with any talent in this area of work. However, I am sure we can avoid making things worse by continuing to think things through and complete our experiments before tackling the offending items in KMC.
The original installer would love to be named and shamed on UK Caving and sell the film rights via his/her publicity agent, but I will not give him/her the satisfaction. There is no witch/wizard hunt required.
I like to think that we are able to keep a sense of perspective/proportion in our relations within northern caving.
Andrew Hinde
Chair CNCC.
malcolm smith
New member
Had a trip to see them today. They look like ones that were/are in Dismal Hill.
I wasn't offended by them. Had to crane an ageing neck upwards to see them in the first place.
If they make the traverse, which I presume is intended as an emergency high water exit rather than an adventure climbing frame for more able cavers, a bit easier for less able cavers who find themselves in peril, I'd think fair enough.
It's a bit of cave used by the caving world and his/her dog so why not make the emergency high water exit a bit easier for the less able?
May well be wrong on the reason for their placement of course 🙂
I wasn't offended by them. Had to crane an ageing neck upwards to see them in the first place.
If they make the traverse, which I presume is intended as an emergency high water exit rather than an adventure climbing frame for more able cavers, a bit easier for less able cavers who find themselves in peril, I'd think fair enough.
It's a bit of cave used by the caving world and his/her dog so why not make the emergency high water exit a bit easier for the less able?
May well be wrong on the reason for their placement of course 🙂
Cave_Troll
Active member
I assume they are actual via ferrata staples not just random bits of rebar and may well be stainless ?
if so then we'd not need to worry about them forming streaks of rust down the walls
if so then we'd not need to worry about them forming streaks of rust down the walls
langcliffe
Well-known member
Cave_Troll said:
You may well be right, but in the aforementioned CNCC minutes it says: "Matt Ewles said that this was more a conservation matter; they were not stainless steel and risk rust streaks developing on the cave wall below them over time."
To me, all lumps of steel look the same.
Cave_Troll
Active member
i was wondering if they are actually not stainless or are they assumed to be non-stainless.
i wasn't arguing for or against their existence
i wasn't arguing for or against their existence
langcliffe
Well-known member
Cave_Troll said:
Which is good, because I didn't respond to any argument for or against their existence.
I was simply quoting one reasonable reputable source which claims that they are not stainless.
