Metal Steps KMC

[Simon Wilson]

In my opinion (and obviously plenty of others) they need to go. CNCC are the right group for the job after a quick vote? and I hope there's someone who thinks likewise who will push to get it done.

Jules.

I think the first person to be asked to remove them should be the person who installed them.

I think nobody should install anything in a cave that can't be removed and that they are not prepared to remove.

 

[Wolfo]

You could pull stuff like this with two hydraulic jacks (car type) and a bridge made from a cut of solid U-section (U60). If there is no possibility to fix a hanger, some  windings of 6mm cord would fix the step to the U-section.
Allways did the job for me, but a bunch of ironmongery to carry down.

 

[Badlad]

There have been a number of discussions going on behind the scenes on this topic as well as on here.  From what I have heard in snippets from CRO and CNCC is that the most likely outcome is that these metal steps will be removed.  How and who by is yet to be determined.  I think the principle reason is that there is no pressing need for them from a rescue viewpoint and general consensus is to have less fixed aids rather than more.  Certainly the CNCC only endorse the anchor scheme and have rejected any involvement with other fixed aids due to liability perceptions and simply not enough resources to maintain them properly.

Onlookers can be assured that the person responsible will be publicly flogged and humiliated probably in the stocks next to the Marton Arms although rumour has it that he will probably enjoy it more than he should 

 

[Simon Beck]

The attempted deception was the only punishable crime committed here.

Thanks for the update.

 

[braveduck]

Well this has generated some indignation and possibly not a little bit of hypocrisy .
So what is the difference between installing one metal bar in a not too obvious place
and engineering a totally artificial passage through a boulder choke using large
amounts of Scaffolding Tube which then remain in place for ever .
  :-\
   

 

[danthecavingman]

Well this has generated some indignation and possibly not a little bit of hypocrisy .
So what is the difference between installing one metal bar in a not too obvious place
and engineering a totally artificial passage through a boulder choke using large
amounts of Scaffolding Tube which then remain in place for ever .
  :-\
 

Quite a bit actually....

 

[Simon Beck]

Well this has generated some indignation and possibly not a little bit of hypocrisy .
So what is the difference between installing one metal bar in a not too obvious place
and engineering a totally artificial passage through a boulder choke using large
amounts of Scaffolding Tube which then remain in place for ever .
  :-\
 

Hi Braveduck

I've already said enough here and don't wish to debate this any further. Although I feel your comment is irrelevant to the subject in hand I can certainly see your point and don't disagree with you. If you wish to make an official complaint against what it is I am doing, be my guest.

 

[topcat]

The hypocrisy is more than just a little bit.  It is staggering.
It is not often I go caving without heavy reliance on caver introduced aids of one sort of another: bolts, drilled threads, blasted ( mined!) passage, copious amounts of various steel work, and even the odd artificial foothold.  I often crawl over smashed up stal etc, sacrificed in order to push the cave.

I bet 'you' do too..........

Tc

 

[aricooperdavis]

So what is the difference between installing one metal bar in a not too obvious place
and engineering a totally artificial passage through a boulder choke using large
amounts of Scaffolding Tube which then remain in place for ever.

For me there are lots of things that help draw that line, but "necessity" is a big one for me. I think that, to get through that boulder choke, it's necessary to move boulders and keep them moved. So on pitch heads that have bomber naturals or trees or whatever, I don't think that bolts are necessary to make that bit of caving safe, but on lots of pitches it is necessary to have some way to install ropes in order to descend, so they should be bolted (but only where necessary). So I would think that deciding whether the steps should be there or not should include thinking about whether they're necessary to access something on the other side. I don't know this bit of cave at all, by the way, but I am interested in the aid debate

 

[Tribal Chestnut]

I popped into KMC today for the first time and, as I was waiting around for a little while, wondered upstream and found these. There was one just up from the downstream sump and another five a little further on.

Bit of a eyesore and from below they do seem to be rather pointless, though that is only to my own inexperienced eye. I assumed that they had been installed by some sort of activity co. for the school holidays. Quite rough looking - pieces of bent rebar resin fixed in place.

I can see why many are getting rather uppity.

 

[droid]

RE the 'necessary' theme: there's plenty of caves that have been descended on naturals for decades, that are now fully bolted up. Bolting that's been sanctioned by those that take it upon themselves to sanction such things.

Just saying.....

 

[aricooperdavis]

That's where the necessity vs convenience line becomes tricky to draw - I'd happily have a couple of discrete bolts to use if it gives a dryer hang (which could be necessary to pass the cave safely in certain conditions), or even if it makes it easier to find decent anchors that you can trust (and that could be necessary to allow safe descent by cavers unfamiliar with the particular naturals). We need as fair a way as possible to sort out the cases like this that are close to that necessary line - and regional councils seem like an excellent way to handle that. You've got the potential for input from lots of interested cavers, a good forum for discussion, and a way to document the process. So I'd be anti vigilante-bolters/metalwork installers, and pro the CNCC fixed aids scheme (if it's done properly, which it certainly seems to be to me!).

 

[Simon Beck]

RE the 'necessary' theme: there's plenty of caves that have been descended on naturals for decades, that are now fully bolted up. Bolting that's been sanctioned by those that take it upon themselves to sanction such things.

Just saying.....

I'm not really the person to comment on this, don't really know the specifics etc..  but in many of these cases approval was sort via the cncc, via their rebolting program was it not?
Isn't that why the organisation exists, to sanction these types of things?
It doesn't suit everybody sure, but there appears far less hostility towards the re-bolting issue (since it began) than there does towards an isolated incident, such as the one that sparked this debate.

Let's not forget why this thread came about, because approval was not sort, for something fairly unprecedented, from someone, from an organisation, that would usually seek approval before taking such steps. 

 

[Simon Wilson]

The CNCC only install anchors and we install the minimum number. The anchor scheme is open to public scrutiny, any caver can express their views on anchor installations and their opinions are actively invited. They can request installations or apply to become an installer. It is because the anchor scheme is run by a democratically constituted body in a way that is open to public scrutiny that I can confidently say that it has the approval of the majority of cavers. It also has the approval of the Cave Rescue Organisation, BCA, Natural England and Yorkshire Dales National Park.

 

[mikem]

A well placed anchor or step is far more environmentally friendly than the rope / strop wear marks & polish on many naturals, never mind the damage done to trees by regular use...

Mike

 

[topcat]

A well placed anchor or step is far more environmentally friendly than the rope / strop wear marks & polish on many naturals, never mind the damage done to trees by regular use...

Mike

Indeed.  Back in the 80's I suggested that at a set of VF steps on the Kingsdale pitch would have been better than the bolt farm and wire damage from ladders.  The suggestion wasn't popular then either! 

That pitch is pretty much permanently rigged [only been once or twice when it wasn't so did the climb, which has sprouted fixed bolts recently, but only low down, unless these have been extended??].  It looks a mess.  It is a mess.

I appreciate that the locations are not the same, by a few meters, but I can't see a great deal of difference between an incomplete {?} bolt ladder at the climb and the steps that are causing so much angst.  But then, I haven't seen them.  I'll have a look in two weeks time.

 

[Simon Wilson]

A well placed anchor or step is far more environmentally friendly than the rope / strop wear marks & polish on many naturals, never mind the damage done to trees by regular use...

Mike

Indeed.  Back in the 80's I suggested that at a set of VF steps on the Kingsdale pitch would have been better than the bolt farm and wire damage from ladders.  The suggestion wasn't popular then either! 

That pitch is pretty much permanently rigged [only been once or twice when it wasn't so did the climb, which has sprouted fixed bolts recently, but only low down, unless these have been extended??].  It looks a mess.  It is a mess.

I appreciate that the locations are not the same, by a few meters, but I can't see a great deal of difference between an incomplete {?} bolt ladder at the climb and the steps that are causing so much angst.  But then, I haven't seen them.  I'll have a look in two weeks time.

These steps are nothing to do with the pitch. They are on the high level traverse.

I think most people are OK with some permanent rigging on the pitch. The CNCC have a policy of installing no fixed aids other than anchors and that is not likely to change. So anything on the pitch will have to be done without the CNCC.

 

[mikem]

Although you should still check the exit route before starting your trip, so may as well rig it - the only thing being that so many groups may be in there that a permanently rigged rope would reduce the tangle....

Mike

 

[topcat]

Although you should still check the exit route before starting your trip, so may as well rig it - the only thing being that so many groups may be in there that a permanently rigged rope would reduce the tangle....

Mike

That's kind of what I was thinking.  It can get very confusing with multiple ropes / ladders. 

 

[Simon Beck]

It was made pretty clear earlier in the thread that these have nothing to do with the pitch.