Milwr tunnel and O.G.

[NewStuff]

Locked in the level ? There wasnt a lock , a gate or even a lid.

A grill was put over the level, and boulders piled on the other side of it. This was done with the knowledge people were in it. Again, does that not strike you as a Stupid Fucking Thing to do? It doesn't matter how much you disagree with people, or clubs, that kind of fucked up logic has immense potential to backfire in about the worst fashion possible.

I don't think there is any dispute over the amount of effort put into the place, the problem lies in the blatant spreading of crap by the club about access, and the total lack of cooperation or information given to anyone outside the GCC. 

At the end of the day, we all have the same interest in what's under our feet, so why all the need for bullshit that goes on? It's like a bunch of 5yr olds not wanting to play with you if you are not in "their gang". I think you'll find that if you have an honest discourse with others and actually give access to BCA members that are competent enough to do the proposed trip, irrespective of the club they are affiliated with, you'll find life a lot easier.

 

[Dave Tyson]

Locked in the level ? There wasnt a lock , a gate or even a lid.

A grill was put over the level, and boulders piled on the other side of it. This was done with the knowledge people were in it. Again, does that not strike you as a Stupid Fucking Thing to do? It doesn't matter how much you disagree with people, or clubs, that kind of fucked up logic has immense potential to backfire in about the worst fashion possible.

I don't think there is any dispute over the amount of effort put into the place, the problem lies in the blatant spreading of crap by the club about access, and the total lack of cooperation or information given to anyone outside the GCC. 

At the end of the day, we all have the same interest in what's under our feet, so why all the need for bullshit that goes on? It's like a bunch of 5yr olds not wanting to play with you if you are not in "their gang". I think you'll find that if you have an honest discourse with others and actually give access to BCA members that are competent enough to do the proposed trip, irrespective of the club they are affiliated with, you'll find life a lot easier.

I guess there is nothing stopping you from approaching UU/Gosvenor Estate and negotiating your own private access, although you might find the process both difficult and expensive (in lawyers fees)...

Dave

 

[Rhys]

[gmod] Just for the record, I have removed some of yesterdays tit-for-tat posts which added nothing to the issue at hand.[/gmod]

 

[crickleymal]

Dammit. I'm going to have to get out of my armchair and get some more popcorn.

 

[Carbide1]

I think you'll find that if you have an honest discourse with others and actually give access to BCA members that are competent enough to do the proposed trip, irrespective of the club they are affiliated with, you'll find life a lot easier.

What was the 'old' set up as regards insurance for persons entering the system?

 

[Rhys]

Parallel topic on Aditnow, if anyone's interested:

http://www.aditnow.co.uk/community/viewtopic.aspx?t=8564

 

[mad-dan]

Just for the record, I have removed some of yesterdays tit-for-tat posts which added nothing to the issue at hand.

Can I ask why my post was removed? i asked 2 vary valid questions about access to the system via none GCC entrances, yet you have deleted it.

 

[Rhys]

Just for the record, I have removed some of yesterdays tit-for-tat posts which added nothing to the issue at hand.

Can I ask why my post was removed? i asked 2 vary valid questions about access to the system via none GCC entrances, yet you have deleted it.

None of your posts have been removed.

 

[bograt]

do you have a rough idea on a time scale then?

I don't mean to sound arsey, as that's not what is intended, but to be fair, it must be 4 or 5 years now that people have been saying that access will be possible "quite soon", but there has been no word what so ever, and with all the ridiculous politics with regard to access to anything in wales, especially north wales, i just see more people talking about something that will never happen, as you say, this isn't a club statement, it is just a bit of chit/chat.

I'm also confused as to what your intentions are if it ever does happen, in your first post you say "we want to start taking a few trips down there again in the future"

But in your last post you say there are other access points, this would indicate i could get in there without entering via OG or coed hendre, does this mean as a green card holder, if i find an alternative access point, under your access agreement i have permission to be in the Milwr, if this is the case, it may be a good idea to post details on what areas your agreement covers, this may help stop other people upsetting the land owners / UU / whoever is responsible for the bits you don't have permission to be in.

We've been locked out for 5 years and when asked, we always hoped it would be opened again soon.

This isnt quite right, you (GCC members) either with or without the clubs knowledge have been entering the system for at least the last 2 years that I know of, I have personally bumped into and spoken to GCC members in the system. So yes i have been in there, but i would like to be clear and say I have never entered the system through Coed Hendre OR O/G.

Personally I dont really care, but some clarification of the current in place access agreement would be great, in short what is the situation if the tunnel is accessed via one of the other many entrances that GCC doesnt have locked down, obviously said person will be in the system without your (GCC) permission or knowledge, how does this impact on the agreement you have. 

It's been a frustrating and long wait until we gained access again but unfortunately, our hands were tied as it wasn't our decision to make. We had no option but to wait.

I appreciate it has been frustrating, but it is also very frustrating for everyone else, It is common knowledge that half the northern hemisphere goes into the milwr every week, but access as you well know is a nightmare and quite dangerous, Knowing there is a safe simple way in, (Coed Hendre) which you (GCC) has kept locked and not shared for the last 2 years makes many people doubt what they are been told, i suspect this is the reason why people have taken lids off, unless the lids were removed to get people out who have strangely found their selves locked in some how..

Hears hoping you come up with a decent system for access like what they have at Cwmorthin, cant see it happening though.

Just for the record, I have removed some of yesterdays tit-for-tat posts which added nothing to the issue at hand.

Can I ask why my post was removed? i asked 2 vary valid questions about access to the system via none GCC entrances, yet you have deleted it.

Paranoid??

 

[mad-dan]

Paranoid??

Why would you even say that? it is a well known fact that i suffer from schizophrenia, and I'm actually surprised you would stoop so low as to mock my illness.

 

[bograt]

Sorry, its not well known to me, I apologise, and I would just like to point out that I am not out to get any one of you!.

 

[droid]

If GCC can provide access to Milwr in an equitable fashion then I'd support their efforts. If it's going to be an 'our gang' situation they can take a long walk off a short pier.

 

[timwatts]

Our club has taken the stance that where a 'lock' is needed (i.e. specific landowner request or massive safety hazard - think straight into top of 800foot shaft right next to playarea/public path) we use combo locks and ensure the codes are made avaliable to other individuals/clubs/groups. As mentioned a nut and bolt even better. Anything with a key just isn't required and makes things difficult.

Personally i'l like to see every locked access point adopt a combo lock rather than key and the codes all made available via a central repository online - perhaps accessed/hosted via the BCA website.

In the even that it is strictly necessary to issue the code only to those with valid BCA insurance (again only where the access permit requires this) it could even as for a bca membership number & name which could be automatically cross-checked at the BCA end before the code was issued.

I remind again (as per my previous post) that any access controlling member club of the BCA are duty bound as a condition of this membership to share access to all 'their' holes  with all other BCA members.

Cwmorthin gate code system is a perfect model of how i think lock management should be done.

 

[bograt]

I remind again (as per my previous post) that any access controlling member club of the BCA are duty bound as a condition of this membership to share access to all 'their' holes  with all other BCA members.

Cwmorthin gate code system is a perfect model of how i think lock management should be done.

Combo locks are O.K. as long as they are maintained and regularly used, otherwise they get corroded and impossible to use, a "Derbyshire key" is better. Those "in the know" will take the necessary spanner(s) along.  For those sites that are more sensitive, a domed Allen key bolt requiring the right sized (size available to those "in the know") Allen Key should fit the bill.

I think that your use of "Duty Bound" should read "Morally Bound" since the BCA is primarily a negotiating body, rather than a policing body.??

 

[droid]

If the BCA is a 'negotiating body', is it 'negotiating' more amenable access arrangements in North Wales or Cornwall, which seem to me to be rather similar circumstances?

 

[timwatts]

I'll not pretend to be knowledgeable of the correct terminology to apply - but there are a couple of RULES of BCA membership as listed on the BCA website. And there are some further RULES (or maybe 'CONDITIONS'?) on the agreement that is signed by a club when they take on the role of access agents.

I would imagine that the BCA would/should/must be the enforcer of these rules otherwise the whole thing is meaningless?

Obviously no-one ever wants to degenerate things to that level though!

As I've said many time and I sincerely believe, GCC (and all other clubs) hold this entire 'ethos' close to heart as its fundamentally what cements us as like minded enthusiasts together and I would be saddened and disappointed to think this wasn't the case.

Lets retain Faith

 

[timwatts]

Not to dwell on the matter, they are actually defined as 'guidelines' http://british-caving.org.uk/?page=121 and a clubs adherence to these guidelines are (it states) used by the BCA to assess acceptance for membership - which is of course on an annual basis.

And on the "Application to become an access controlling body" form (again this is a status that is re-applied for annually) it is a 'condition' that the club must share access to other BCA members in order for the application to be accepted.

http://british-caving.org.uk/membership/06C1812_Access_Controlling_Body_v7.pdf

GCC aren't stupid and they are working very hard (as they have done for many years previously) to secure access for everyone and we should all be supportive of their ongoing work as a BCA Access Controlling Body.

We should in my opinion remain supportive and co-operate across the board towards this ideal.

 

[bograt]

If the BCA is a 'negotiating body', is it 'negotiating' more amenable access arrangements in North Wales or Cornwall, which seem to me to be rather similar circumstances?

This is up to the relevant regional councils to get their arse in gear and get their access officer to sort it out, that is if there is enough demand from member clubs, if the said clubs prefer to alienate themselves from local politics, they only have themselves to blame and should stop whinging!!.

 

[droid]

Good point, bograt.


Seems to me the issue is not so much the negotiations for access per se between clubs and the landowner, but extra conditions/restrictions imposed or negotiated by those clubs for their own ends.

 

[bograt]

Good point, bograt.


Seems to me the issue is not so much the negotiations for access per se between clubs and the landowner, but extra conditions/restrictions imposed or negotiated by those clubs for their own ends.

"but extra conditions/restrictions imposed or negotiated by those clubs for their own ends." 

Assumed, perceived, fact or rumour?? (or just envy?)

I fail to see why any club would spend all the time & effort (& money!) in negotiation and access work underground "for their own ends" if they didn't want to show it off to others at the end of the day.