Milwr tunnel and O.G.

[timwatts]

Our chairman spoke to the GCC Sec.  on the phone yesterday and the result of that phone conversation is what gives me the impression that the invitation for a meeting will not be accepted by GCC and also that I am unlikely to receive a reply to my email.

Obviously this has disappointed and saddened me greatly as i've been striving for nothing more than an amiable relationship between the clubs. That said though, it was a spur of the moment reaction so I remain hopeful that perhaps we will get a formal reply from GCC soon and that they will agree to a meeting face to face.

 

[Rhys]

Nig

My understanding is that locks and gates have been broken off during the recent period of no access, rather than during the previous period of led trips being available. I may be wrong though....

Rhys

 

[Carter]

It has been asked that if the leadership system worked so well, why have we had so much trouble with locks and gates being broken
I'll try to explain this one more time.
The regular lock breaking, vandalism and theft has been happening to us and the land owner since our agreement was suspended. This was despite the fact that we informed the caving community of the situation we were in. Obviously,  we couldn't contact everyone but even so, a small number of people still refused to believe we weren't allowed in and some selfish people risked everything by breaking in. The end result could have easily been the landowner or mine owner deciding they'd had enough and simply  refusing all access and possibly using a concrete lock. There was only two breakins  before that. Once was local lads the other, unknown persons.

I believe another local clubs lock was changed at a nearby level recently too..... again. I cant understand why though.

 

[Carter]

Sorry Rhys, I missed your post.

 

[NigR]

The regular lock breaking, vandalism and theft has been happening to us and the land owner since our agreement was suspended. There was only two breakins  before that.

OK, that can only mean your locks must have been broken by all those frustrated daytrippers who have been deprived of their guided tours whilst your access agreement has been suspended. If this is indeed the case, once you are open for business again all should be sweetness and light, just like before. No more break-ins, everybody friends.

There you go, a perfect world!

 

[droid]

As a complete outsider to the murky world of North Walian Underground Politics, it strikes me as unlikely that all members of either UCET or GCC sing from the same songsheet. It only takes a couple of 'rogue elements' in any club to sour relationships. Lock-chopping equipment is cheap and portable.

Maybe if the relevent clubs could get the dissidents 'on message' there might be progress in this sorry situation?

 

[NewStuff]

As a complete outsider to the murky world of North Walian Underground Politics, it strikes me as unlikely that all members of either UCET or GCC sing from the same songsheet. It only takes a couple of 'rogue elements' in any club to sour relationships. Lock-chopping equipment is cheap and portable.

Maybe if the relevent clubs could get the dissidents 'on message' there might be progress in this sorry situation?

Or, just maybe, the "Rogue elements" are not in a club. I wasn't aware that possessing and using a grinder required club affiliation. Just a thought.

 

[RobinGriffiths]

Maybe if the relevent clubs could get the dissidents 'on message' there might be progress in this sorry situation?

Reminds me of (but with no allusion to any particular club) The People's Front

 

[droid]

Good point, NewStuff.

But participation in a club's forum implies at least an informal link to that club.....

 

[Blakethwaite]

As for the positive feedback and lack of complaints you have received after trips, well this is bound to be the case isn't it? If people are perfectly content to go along with your system and be led around like sheep they are hardly going to complain about it afterwards are they? It is the true explorers who possess the initiative and desire to see what is there for themselves who have the complaints and I am sure they will continue to express them in whatever ways they see fit.

There are quite a few mines within a normal caving commute of Mold which operate purely on a leader-led trip basis much like GCC at Milwr (or as they used to anyway) and equally offer no little or no potential for those outside of the relevant controlling clubs to explore or dig.

Alderley Edge, the Shropshire Mines, Parys & the Orme spring to mind. Quite probably Ecton + others in the Peak too.

Do these clubs attract the same levels of enmity as GCC NigR & if not, is there a reason for this?

Would these clubs have carried out the level of work that they have done at their respective mines had they not been able to treat them as their own 'lairs'?

 

[Ian Adams]

I can answer that in part (and I am sure I will corrected if I understand incorrectly).

Alderely Edge ? Run by DCC, very ?open? and easy going. Lots of members and everyone is more than happy to give their time if you request a trip. There are a number of members who are proponents of open access ? it is no secret that they have suffered vandalism but they are openly being ?open? (if you see what I mean). Very good club.

Shropshire Mines ? I don?t have any experience of these guys.

Parys Mountain ? They have accommodated trips but suffer from having only a limited number of people available who are able to host trips. There is limited interest in the Parys mine but they do try to jump to attention when asked and are happy to do so.

GOES (Great Orme) I met these guys and they came across as being genuine and helpful. That said, the club I am a member of has been trying to organise a trip for over a year and it never happened. I am aware from another forum that people there were trying to arrange a trip and that also never happened. There is also limited interest in the Orme. I don?t know why the trips were never hosted.

All clubs are different although I am sure that some share the same ethos with various aspects (access, conservation, preservation, fun, bar time etc.). This thread is about the single biggest attraction in North Wales that has a large national interest and how it is ?managed?.



Ian

 

[Tangent_tracker]

Being an active member of the DCC I can say that we are more than happy to allow competent green card holders near unlimited access to our mines, but they have to be accompanied by a current 'leader', and also satisfy us that they are capable of whatever trip they want to undertake. This does not mean to say you can't actually lead yourself and explore the systems more thoroughly, but due to the sensitive nature of some aspects of the mines, and our lease agreement with the National Trust, we simply cannot allow people to enter unaccompanied.
Alderley is very different to the Milwr for a number of reasons. Our primary role as a club is to maintain the integrity and safety of the mines, protect archeologically important areas and artifacts underground, but also act to further our knowledge and educate the public. They are also classified as working mines so that we can perform maintenance work and take the public of all ages down there on regular trips.
We have sadly had some incidents in recent years with people attempting to gain access by way of vandalism, and also liberal use of spray cans within the mine which seems such a shame considering there are a good number of members who are prepared to give up their spare time and aid in trips as mentioned above, and often at quite short notice!

http://www.derbyscc.org.uk/alderley/current_visiting_cavers.php

As for the positive feedback and lack of complaints you have received after trips, well this is bound to be the case isn't it? If people are perfectly content to go along with your system and be led around like sheep they are hardly going to complain about it afterwards are they? It is the true explorers who possess the initiative and desire to see what is there for themselves who have the complaints and I am sure they will continue to express them in whatever ways they see fit.

There are quite a few mines within a normal caving commute of Mold which operate purely on a leader-led trip basis much like GCC at Milwr (or as they used to anyway) and equally offer no little or no potential for those outside of the relevant controlling clubs to explore or dig.

Alderley Edge, the Shropshire Mines, Parys & the Orme spring to mind. Quite probably Ecton + others in the Peak too.

Do these clubs attract the same levels of enmity as GCC NigR & if not, is there a reason for this?

Would these clubs have carried out the level of work that they have done at their respective mines had they not been able to treat them as their own 'lairs'?

 

[Blakethwaite]

Yes but ultimately they do all have the same policy - pre-arranged, leader led trips only - even if that policy is applied slightly differently in each case.

There's nothing wrong with that policy per se, if thats what the landowner/insurer/whoever want then that's what they get. The question was actually aimed at NigR who suggested that 'true explorers' (whatever that might mean) aren't going to be happy with led trips and will therefore remove gates, which I took to be a fairly mindless load of twaddle.

 

[NewStuff]

Good point, NewStuff.

But participation in a club's forum implies at least an informal link to that club.....

And your post Implies that I am a Rogue element or I've cut off GCC's locks, so let's make this crystal fucking clear.

• I am a member of UCET, however, this does not preclude me from having my own opinion.
• I have not, at any point, taken a grinder to GCC's (or, while we are at it, NWCC's) locks.
• I have not, at any point, entered the Milwr via any GCC's "off limits" entrances.

So, that taken into account... what has my participation in this debate got to do with my club? I have not been (and would not be) told to be "on message" (that's a nasty phrase borrowed from politicians, discussion may get heated, but there's no need to sink to that level). I don't actually see that you have a point at all. The people cutting the locks may not be affiliated, formally or otherwise, with a club. I don't know who they are, but a number of posts seem to assume that they are members, or at least closely associated with, a club.

 

[droid]

Sorry about that, your constant 'free access everywhere for all' rhetoric has swayed my assumptions.

However, the point still remainds: in the enclosed world of local caving/exploration, offence given by one member/associate of a club can sour relationships with other clubs.

 

[Ian Adams]

There's nothing wrong with that policy per se, if thats what the landowner/insurer/whoever want then that's what they get.

No problem per se

However, what if the landowner asks the club to write/provide the agreement and the club put such a clause in themselves ?

What if, even, the club approach the landowner with such an agreement before the landowner has asked for it suggesting (on the lines of) "look, see, we will stop everyone else going in - we will be the police" ?

And... what if it is the club that writes an exclusive agreement and not a non-exclusive agreement ?

Not the same then 

I would have hoped that all caving clubs would be working for easier access for everyone everywhere (where possible)

Ian

 

[droid]

A point I agree with, and indeed made myself earlier in the discussion.

It's maybe asking a bit much for any club to admit to such action though....

 

[NewStuff]

Sorry about that, your constant 'free access everywhere for all' rhetoric has swayed my assumptions.

While that's a nice idea, I know it is not possible. I have said so a number of times. You know this, as you have answered and interacted with a number of my posts saying so.

As for my causing "offence" to the club in question being the reason my club is not getting access? It was obvious before I posted that negotiations were going nowhere, and the offers of help were declined or ignored. My posting can't making anything worse (No access through GCC controlled points as has been the case for a number of years), and may (but it's a bloody long shot), incite a bit of soul searching, or enough external pressure to the club to make them realise that they are not playing with others nicely, and others beside local clubs do not think this is an acceptable way to do things.

 

[Ian Adams]

It's maybe asking a bit much for any club to admit to such action though....

I know 

Ian

 

[graham]

It's maybe asking a bit much for any club to admit to such action though....

I know 

Ian

Does this mean that you really do not know that what you said was what actually happened?