Milwr tunnel and O.G.
- Thread starter Carter
- Start date
peterrivington
New member
We opened a mine once. Gated it at the request of the farmer. Only a small padlock because who would break in when there is a contact number clearly displayed and the key was there for the asking. Well they did break in, repeatedly, until the gate was beyond repair.
Thing is, where were the lock breakers when the digging was going on? Did they carry stemples? help to shovel mud? Did they write a report of their visit for posterity?
Seems to me the lock breakers are asking for free access to all mines without doing any of the work to maintain access, either physical or in committee. Sounds like parasites to me.
Thing is, where were the lock breakers when the digging was going on? Did they carry stemples? help to shovel mud? Did they write a report of their visit for posterity?
Seems to me the lock breakers are asking for free access to all mines without doing any of the work to maintain access, either physical or in committee. Sounds like parasites to me.
cavermark
New member
peterrivington said:
Probably in the same place are they are when negotiations with the landowner take place to gain access in the first place, satisfying him that it won't be an accident waiting to happen or lead to all his sheep escaping or walls knocked down.
The same place they are when landowners seek reassurance in these days of increased litigation that it won't lead to him being sued. (Have ********** et al considered that THIS may be the MAIN reason more locks and chains are appearing in recent years, not some vile conspiracy by clubs to keep people out. The only people excluded are those with an innability to pick up the phone and DISCUSS with the managing body how to gain access - such as picking up a key, or offering to join a working/digging trip?)
Ian Adams
Active member
It is very true that there are people who will destroy a lock, chain (or whatever) just for the sake of taking it off rather than use a combination which is easily obtainable. As an excellent example model for controlled access I would cite Cwmorthin (already mentioned once) where the leaseholder has it gated but the gate is on a hinge which it will lift off and the gate uses a combination with a very easily accessible code ? still, people have ripped off the gate and thrown it away from the mine, ruined the lock, stolen the lock etc etc (you get the picture). The type of people that do this will always do it no matter what the caving community agrees here, through the BCA or between ourselves ? it will always happen.
The best we can hope for is mitigation and I can assure you that, in the case of the Milwr tunnel (which is, after all, what this thread is about), the neighbouring club repeatedly offered to help with the work pushing through a new route (and is still offering) but not only was that help declined but a denial was repeatedly issued (in at least one case this was ?face to face? at a meeting) that the GCC were in even there.
Additionally, since the previous access agreement (leaving aside its origin) stipulated that visitors had to be accompanied by a GCC certified leader (ie. a leader that the GCC had examined and determined to be a fit person to lead others down the system) many offers were made, again by at least one of the neighbouring clubs, to act as leaders (as the system is very well known to the three local clubs) but this assistance was rejected.
Furthermore, anyone attempting to join the club who ?appeared? to want to do so ?mainly? or ?solely? for the purposes of entering the Milwr tunnel were rejected and not allowed to join. I know this as a fact and I know two noted people to whom this has happened (as well as other not-so noted people).
Furthermore, the incident that Newstuff referred to (the blocking in of a party in an adit) is true with a note being left on a vehicle outside saying that the adit was out of bounds and protected by the UU agreement ? this is the same adit which GCC then entered, gated and have been working in for ?however long? on the basis that this adit is NOT covered the UU agreement.
I accept that not all clubs behave in the manner I have outlined above but I don?t accept that there can be only one ?generic? type of person who objects to being locked out.
As a member of one of the neighbouring clubs I have been working with my club to find a mutually acceptable solution and have been doing for the best part of a year. I will continue to do exactly that but I do feel that, at least in this instance, the caving club controlling the adit has not made life easy for themselves (or anyone else obviously) and appear to be oblivious to the ill-feeling which surrounds this matter.
Communication, negotiations and mutually acceptable agreements require more than one party to be involved and until and unless that process begins, how can any caving club expect their ?lock? to stay on?
Ian
The best we can hope for is mitigation and I can assure you that, in the case of the Milwr tunnel (which is, after all, what this thread is about), the neighbouring club repeatedly offered to help with the work pushing through a new route (and is still offering) but not only was that help declined but a denial was repeatedly issued (in at least one case this was ?face to face? at a meeting) that the GCC were in even there.
Additionally, since the previous access agreement (leaving aside its origin) stipulated that visitors had to be accompanied by a GCC certified leader (ie. a leader that the GCC had examined and determined to be a fit person to lead others down the system) many offers were made, again by at least one of the neighbouring clubs, to act as leaders (as the system is very well known to the three local clubs) but this assistance was rejected.
Furthermore, anyone attempting to join the club who ?appeared? to want to do so ?mainly? or ?solely? for the purposes of entering the Milwr tunnel were rejected and not allowed to join. I know this as a fact and I know two noted people to whom this has happened (as well as other not-so noted people).
Furthermore, the incident that Newstuff referred to (the blocking in of a party in an adit) is true with a note being left on a vehicle outside saying that the adit was out of bounds and protected by the UU agreement ? this is the same adit which GCC then entered, gated and have been working in for ?however long? on the basis that this adit is NOT covered the UU agreement.
I accept that not all clubs behave in the manner I have outlined above but I don?t accept that there can be only one ?generic? type of person who objects to being locked out.
As a member of one of the neighbouring clubs I have been working with my club to find a mutually acceptable solution and have been doing for the best part of a year. I will continue to do exactly that but I do feel that, at least in this instance, the caving club controlling the adit has not made life easy for themselves (or anyone else obviously) and appear to be oblivious to the ill-feeling which surrounds this matter.
Communication, negotiations and mutually acceptable agreements require more than one party to be involved and until and unless that process begins, how can any caving club expect their ?lock? to stay on?
Ian
Prior to our access being suspended we did have leaders who were members of other clubs that were free to lead trips for members of clubs other than ours as long as a few conditions were observed. The main one being decent forms being filled out with the names of leaders, people on the trip and areas to be visited. This was in accordance with our access agreement. We were required to keep records and proof of insurance details of visitors . The forms were kept in the level but some people couldn't or wouldn't fill out the forms. If something went wrong, how could a search or rescue party be expected to locate a missing group in the 20 to 30 miles of workings in the system ?
I have spoken to several locals who had been into the system but who's names never appeared on descent forms.
Luckily, no one got lost or hurt to the best of my knowledge but even so, this risked everyone's access to the system. Filling a simple form in takes minutes. It was part of the mechanism in place to help make visits safer.
The Hendre level is only a few yards from the O.G. level and while we were locked out the lid was broken off numerous times even though it was common knowledge that we had our access suspended and were not going down the shaft and into the tunnel. We did have a few trips to remove or make safe our club equipment that was in the tunnel. This was done with the permission of U.U. After we wrote to ask permission to do so. We still had permission to use the level for storage but after wasting money time and time again buying new locks we decided to remove the gear we were likely to need for our other projects and buried the lid.
This was because people kept crossing private land to break in to what was now basically our club hut. We didn't have access to the mine through there and respected the restrictions imposed on us.
We were alerted to the fact that people, including some of the leaders that wouldn't fill forms in were illegally entering the quarry next to the mine and trying to find the old route into the Hendre workings which has been blasted away and buried for years. We have been fortunate enough to have been asked if we'd like to explore old working that are uncovered by the quarrying and have a good relationship with the managers past and present. The quarry allow us to park on their road and people trespassing jeopardises our car park and relationship so we decided to keep away from the area.
We were alerted to a load of cars there one night and I went to check it out. I was the only person available and was out with a young lady when I got the phone call. No one had mentioned the fact to us that they had planned a trip there, it wasn't our usual club night so I went to see what was going on. The girl in question wasn't happy about being left in the car , in the dark on her own and didn't want to come with me either. Heels and mud etc. I had no idea if the people were in the main mine (it was still locked with our leaders keys at the time) the Hendre level had a piece of reinforcing mesh about 3 ft square as a cover. This was lying on the floor, not unusual at the time. I shouted into the level and waited a good 15 mins, repeatedly shouting in hoping for an answer. I had no lamp and was in going out clothes so couldn't really go in. I couldn't be certain if anyone was in there, the mine or the quarry. I learned the mesh against the entrance and leaned the breeze block against it knowing that if anyone was in there, it's just a case of putting a hand through the large hole in the mesh and pushing the breeze block over. It's simple.
I got called all kinds for that and got earache when I got back to the car too. All that was needed was for someone to have told anyone in the club of their intention to visit and none of this would have happened.
I'd be interested to know who had their application to join the club rejected. Send a pm if you like as I have no intention of mentioning names here. As I have stated several times, the O.P. was purely a heads up to what we've been up to. It's turned political now and there's bad feelings being directed towards me and the club I've been a member of for 20 years of my time caving/mine exploring. I've taken several hundred cavers right through that system over the years. For no reward other than a warm glow when visitors have come up to the surface with beaming smiles telling us that they had a really good enjoyable trip. I aim to carry on doing it too now that I can. Say what you want, there are no flies on me.
The talk of olive branches and bridge building is all good and well. We didn't burn any bridges in the first place. We do not remove locks and replace them with our own (this also covers shafts that we negotiated the access to, opening of , did the work and paid for the capping of with our own money) , vandalise or steal. This is not aimed at anyone in particular please don't be offended if you are not a person who does this kind of thing. That's not what I intend by the statement.
To be honest, I'm sickened by some of the things that have been said and done. Access to all is risked by selfish acts that annoy land and mine owners who give access to cavers given guidelines, rules or conditions are complied with. They don't have to let anyone in. It's not a god given right to us all.
I'm beginning to regret posting on here. I hoped to clear up a few things and give some information to like minded cavers. That's all.
Sorry if some of this sounds a bit blunt. I'm just fed up with being slagged off. I cant go to some underground places anymore because all access is stopped now due to people (at least one who has commented on here) making absolutely no effort to contact land owners, just breaking locks and leaving places wide open, which were subsequently closed for good. I was the key holder for a while too and not once was in asked for a key or even contacted. The guy who holds keys now hasn't either. Our contacts were in our newsletter which is sent to some local clubs but locks were still broken off and changed.
I'm tempted to stop looking at this thread now.
I have spoken to several locals who had been into the system but who's names never appeared on descent forms.
Luckily, no one got lost or hurt to the best of my knowledge but even so, this risked everyone's access to the system. Filling a simple form in takes minutes. It was part of the mechanism in place to help make visits safer.
The Hendre level is only a few yards from the O.G. level and while we were locked out the lid was broken off numerous times even though it was common knowledge that we had our access suspended and were not going down the shaft and into the tunnel. We did have a few trips to remove or make safe our club equipment that was in the tunnel. This was done with the permission of U.U. After we wrote to ask permission to do so. We still had permission to use the level for storage but after wasting money time and time again buying new locks we decided to remove the gear we were likely to need for our other projects and buried the lid.
This was because people kept crossing private land to break in to what was now basically our club hut. We didn't have access to the mine through there and respected the restrictions imposed on us.
We were alerted to the fact that people, including some of the leaders that wouldn't fill forms in were illegally entering the quarry next to the mine and trying to find the old route into the Hendre workings which has been blasted away and buried for years. We have been fortunate enough to have been asked if we'd like to explore old working that are uncovered by the quarrying and have a good relationship with the managers past and present. The quarry allow us to park on their road and people trespassing jeopardises our car park and relationship so we decided to keep away from the area.
We were alerted to a load of cars there one night and I went to check it out. I was the only person available and was out with a young lady when I got the phone call. No one had mentioned the fact to us that they had planned a trip there, it wasn't our usual club night so I went to see what was going on. The girl in question wasn't happy about being left in the car , in the dark on her own and didn't want to come with me either. Heels and mud etc. I had no idea if the people were in the main mine (it was still locked with our leaders keys at the time) the Hendre level had a piece of reinforcing mesh about 3 ft square as a cover. This was lying on the floor, not unusual at the time. I shouted into the level and waited a good 15 mins, repeatedly shouting in hoping for an answer. I had no lamp and was in going out clothes so couldn't really go in. I couldn't be certain if anyone was in there, the mine or the quarry. I learned the mesh against the entrance and leaned the breeze block against it knowing that if anyone was in there, it's just a case of putting a hand through the large hole in the mesh and pushing the breeze block over. It's simple.
I got called all kinds for that and got earache when I got back to the car too. All that was needed was for someone to have told anyone in the club of their intention to visit and none of this would have happened.
I'd be interested to know who had their application to join the club rejected. Send a pm if you like as I have no intention of mentioning names here. As I have stated several times, the O.P. was purely a heads up to what we've been up to. It's turned political now and there's bad feelings being directed towards me and the club I've been a member of for 20 years of my time caving/mine exploring. I've taken several hundred cavers right through that system over the years. For no reward other than a warm glow when visitors have come up to the surface with beaming smiles telling us that they had a really good enjoyable trip. I aim to carry on doing it too now that I can. Say what you want, there are no flies on me.
The talk of olive branches and bridge building is all good and well. We didn't burn any bridges in the first place. We do not remove locks and replace them with our own (this also covers shafts that we negotiated the access to, opening of , did the work and paid for the capping of with our own money) , vandalise or steal. This is not aimed at anyone in particular please don't be offended if you are not a person who does this kind of thing. That's not what I intend by the statement.
To be honest, I'm sickened by some of the things that have been said and done. Access to all is risked by selfish acts that annoy land and mine owners who give access to cavers given guidelines, rules or conditions are complied with. They don't have to let anyone in. It's not a god given right to us all.
I'm beginning to regret posting on here. I hoped to clear up a few things and give some information to like minded cavers. That's all.
Sorry if some of this sounds a bit blunt. I'm just fed up with being slagged off. I cant go to some underground places anymore because all access is stopped now due to people (at least one who has commented on here) making absolutely no effort to contact land owners, just breaking locks and leaving places wide open, which were subsequently closed for good. I was the key holder for a while too and not once was in asked for a key or even contacted. The guy who holds keys now hasn't either. Our contacts were in our newsletter which is sent to some local clubs but locks were still broken off and changed.
I'm tempted to stop looking at this thread now.
Ian Adams
Active member
Sorry Nick, wasn?t trying to throw any darts at you ... it?s the ?situation? that is frustrating.
If you can sit back and reflect on what has been said, by you, on this thread you may be able to see what is so frustrating about trying to make progress. You initially gave the very distinct impression you knew nothing of the incident of blocking in a party and now you have given a full account and said you have suffered no end of grief because of it. You have said that you have not been involved in any of ?the dealings? and don?t know the position but now you say you have been going down for 20 years (and you have been the sec).
You neighbouring club(s) have been offering help for as long as I can remember and not once, since the original UU issue began has the GCC accepted any help from any of us. Not once have we been given an update on the position and, moreover, when we have asked, we have been told untruths (for 12 months)
Most recently, you (GCC) were looking for people with knowledge of what is above the lake (and looking for guides). We know, we have volunteered our help; again, rejected.
It?s this kind of mixed communication that creates ill feeling.
Your neighbouring club(s) are still your allies, still your friends and still want to help. I cannot see any downside to letting them.
Tim (UCET) has asked your sec for a meeting ? why not press for that to go ahead and why not come along. We can talk, laugh and drink.
Ian
If you can sit back and reflect on what has been said, by you, on this thread you may be able to see what is so frustrating about trying to make progress. You initially gave the very distinct impression you knew nothing of the incident of blocking in a party and now you have given a full account and said you have suffered no end of grief because of it. You have said that you have not been involved in any of ?the dealings? and don?t know the position but now you say you have been going down for 20 years (and you have been the sec).
You neighbouring club(s) have been offering help for as long as I can remember and not once, since the original UU issue began has the GCC accepted any help from any of us. Not once have we been given an update on the position and, moreover, when we have asked, we have been told untruths (for 12 months)
Most recently, you (GCC) were looking for people with knowledge of what is above the lake (and looking for guides). We know, we have volunteered our help; again, rejected.
It?s this kind of mixed communication that creates ill feeling.
Your neighbouring club(s) are still your allies, still your friends and still want to help. I cannot see any downside to letting them.
Tim (UCET) has asked your sec for a meeting ? why not press for that to go ahead and why not come along. We can talk, laugh and drink.
Ian
Carter,
You originally posted on here in a feeble attempt to curry favour and provide justification for your club's actions and attitudes over the years. No point crying now that it's backfired and you have all been exposed for what you really are.
Wish I had shares in a business selling angle grinders up in North Wales!
(And I'm still waiting for a coherent answer to my original questions.)
p.s. Sorry, Jackalpup but I really do think you are wasting your time with this lot.
You originally posted on here in a feeble attempt to curry favour and provide justification for your club's actions and attitudes over the years. No point crying now that it's backfired and you have all been exposed for what you really are.
Wish I had shares in a business selling angle grinders up in North Wales!
(And I'm still waiting for a coherent answer to my original questions.)
p.s. Sorry, Jackalpup but I really do think you are wasting your time with this lot.
Ian Adams
Active member
What I hope will happen next is that the situation will become resolved between the local clubs which will (in theory at least) resolve the issue for everyone else. I don't expect that to happen in the next hour - I do expect it it take time but I hope that meaningful dialogue can now be engaged.
If this happens it will be because Nick started a sequence of events that would ultimately bring peaceful resolution - that is something we can all be grateful for.
I have no doubt Nick has read everything on this thread, probably more than once and no doubt he won't agree with everything (do any of us?) and no doubt he has more information in his mind (don't we all?) and I am sure that he at least understands what is going out "out there" even if he doesn't agree with it.
Ian
If this happens it will be because Nick started a sequence of events that would ultimately bring peaceful resolution - that is something we can all be grateful for.
I have no doubt Nick has read everything on this thread, probably more than once and no doubt he won't agree with everything (do any of us?) and no doubt he has more information in his mind (don't we all?) and I am sure that he at least understands what is going out "out there" even if he doesn't agree with it.
Ian
Rhys
Moderator
[gmod]I have removed some posts and quotes at the request of the person who originally posted them - this is an entirely acceptable request. I have also felt it necessary to snip or delete some posts which referred to those posts or which made no sense once those posts were removed. Please do not be offended if any of your words have gone. If you wish to communicate with the poster, please contact them by PM as they do not wish to be involved in this thread.[/gmod]
In reply to Ian, i can't find any reference to not knowing anything about the night I simply placed the mesh over the entrance . I will add again that all was needed to get out was to push the block, which was standing on end over and the mesh falls over too. I simply covered the hole as it was open.
I have also stated that I have had no input or dealings with the negotiations which took place since our access was suspended. I don't know what the deal is with the other access points.. I dont use them. Ive had no reason to find out.
I have not been asked anything or told untruths. Let me know who said what please.
I have been in the club a fair while but cannot comment about subjects I'm not familiar with.
NigR, what was it you wanted me to answer ? By the way. The O.P. was written for the reason I have stated several times. No other reason. Regardless of your interpretation or opinion. As I said, I'm not a letter writer so if you let me know exactly what you want to know, I'll answer if I can. I dont appreciate being made out to be something I'm certainly not by someone who doesn't know me.
I have also stated that I have had no input or dealings with the negotiations which took place since our access was suspended. I don't know what the deal is with the other access points.. I dont use them. Ive had no reason to find out.
I have not been asked anything or told untruths. Let me know who said what please.
I have been in the club a fair while but cannot comment about subjects I'm not familiar with.
NigR, what was it you wanted me to answer ? By the way. The O.P. was written for the reason I have stated several times. No other reason. Regardless of your interpretation or opinion. As I said, I'm not a letter writer so if you let me know exactly what you want to know, I'll answer if I can. I dont appreciate being made out to be something I'm certainly not by someone who doesn't know me.
Powells. I was on most of the original explorations above there and haven't personally asked anyone about it. I believe there was a mention of the area in a recent phone conversation between our Secretaries but don't know much more than the area is still very unstable and there have been several large falls in the stopes which have taken all the ladders and ropes with them . While I'm talking about conditions, I should recomend that anyone up south should beware of poor air quality past lode 547. It seems worst when the shafts are upcast.
Feel free to pm me Ian.
Feel free to pm me Ian.
Carter,
My original questions. They can be applied equally as well to any earlier access agreements too.
Specifically, was all this leadership nonsense at the request of the landowner or your caving club? If it was the landowner's idea did your club make any attempt to bring about more equitable access for other cavers? If not, why not?
Personally, I have no desire or intention to visit the Milwr Tunnel or any part of the associated system. However, if I did then the last thing I would want is to be led around by the hand by a bunch of self appointed guardians of the underworld (particularly when I know they are doing so just to ensure that the more interesting parts of the system remain as their own exclusive playground.) No thanks. Where's that local angle grinder shop?
NigR said:
My original questions. They can be applied equally as well to any earlier access agreements too.
Specifically, was all this leadership nonsense at the request of the landowner or your caving club? If it was the landowner's idea did your club make any attempt to bring about more equitable access for other cavers? If not, why not?
Personally, I have no desire or intention to visit the Milwr Tunnel or any part of the associated system. However, if I did then the last thing I would want is to be led around by the hand by a bunch of self appointed guardians of the underworld (particularly when I know they are doing so just to ensure that the more interesting parts of the system remain as their own exclusive playground.) No thanks. Where's that local angle grinder shop?
As far as I know, the leadership part was the idea of the mine owner who was Welsh water at the time of the original agreement. I'm not sure why the club would've come up with it really. The land owner has given permissive access to the entrance as it's on his land. We've played by the rules that we were asked to comply with so as not to jeopardise access for ourselves and visitors.
The leadership nonsense as you call it has worked well for donkeys years. We've had good feed back from visitors over the years and I don't recall anyone holding hands. We're all grown ups.
The only nonsense I see is the bit about the club keeping people away from the more interesting parts of the mine. Tell me when ? We have been active opening new routes up and maintaining the old ones for years and have been able to take visiting parties straight to the good bits thus saving time and cramming as much in as possible.
I've never heard anyone complain after a trip. Other than that their feet ache.
As you say, you have never been and have no intention to so, in all fairness I can see why you had questions. I hope I've managed to answer them. It appears that you are quite passionate about what you believe but that doesn't mean you will be right about all the things you say and imply.
Happy caving.
The leadership nonsense as you call it has worked well for donkeys years. We've had good feed back from visitors over the years and I don't recall anyone holding hands. We're all grown ups.
The only nonsense I see is the bit about the club keeping people away from the more interesting parts of the mine. Tell me when ? We have been active opening new routes up and maintaining the old ones for years and have been able to take visiting parties straight to the good bits thus saving time and cramming as much in as possible.
I've never heard anyone complain after a trip. Other than that their feet ache.
As you say, you have never been and have no intention to so, in all fairness I can see why you had questions. I hope I've managed to answer them. It appears that you are quite passionate about what you believe but that doesn't mean you will be right about all the things you say and imply.
Happy caving.
Nick, Ian, Tim,
Get the GCC, UCET & any other locally interested clubs together, meet in a pub and explore and manage a mutually acceptable solution to all this so we, the caving and mining groups, can all start exploring this truly magnificent place again. But please do hurry up and come up with a workable plan that fits in with whatever UU require and allows improved access to that which existed before otherwise the resentment will clearly continue. This will be no easy task but the hardest thing is starting, and Nick has already done that by putting up the original post. Forget negativity and use the some of the arguments sparked off in this thread to achieve positive ends.
C'mon lads, you can do this if you really want to!
Cheers
Get the GCC, UCET & any other locally interested clubs together, meet in a pub and explore and manage a mutually acceptable solution to all this so we, the caving and mining groups, can all start exploring this truly magnificent place again. But please do hurry up and come up with a workable plan that fits in with whatever UU require and allows improved access to that which existed before otherwise the resentment will clearly continue. This will be no easy task but the hardest thing is starting, and Nick has already done that by putting up the original post. Forget negativity and use the some of the arguments sparked off in this thread to achieve positive ends.
C'mon lads, you can do this if you really want to!
Cheers
Carter,
Thanks for attempting to answer my questions but I remain unconvinced, particularly as you deftly sidestep the most important one by not even mentioning whether or not anything has been done to improve access for cavers from outside your own club.
You say the leadership system has worked well for many years. If this is the case, why have you had so many problems with your locks and gates being chopped on a regular basis? If the whole wide world was happy with things as they stand then this simply would not happen would it?
As for the positive feedback and lack of complaints you have received after trips, well this is bound to be the case isn't it? If people are perfectly content to go along with your system and be led around like sheep they are hardly going to complain about it afterwards are they? It is the true explorers who possess the initiative and desire to see what is there for themselves who have the complaints and I am sure they will continue to express them in whatever ways they see fit.
Have fun replacing your locks and gates.
Thanks for attempting to answer my questions but I remain unconvinced, particularly as you deftly sidestep the most important one by not even mentioning whether or not anything has been done to improve access for cavers from outside your own club.
You say the leadership system has worked well for many years. If this is the case, why have you had so many problems with your locks and gates being chopped on a regular basis? If the whole wide world was happy with things as they stand then this simply would not happen would it?
As for the positive feedback and lack of complaints you have received after trips, well this is bound to be the case isn't it? If people are perfectly content to go along with your system and be led around like sheep they are hardly going to complain about it afterwards are they? It is the true explorers who possess the initiative and desire to see what is there for themselves who have the complaints and I am sure they will continue to express them in whatever ways they see fit.
Have fun replacing your locks and gates.
timwatts
New member
I (as UCET) have already requested a meeting with GCC via an email to the GCC Sec. in order to allow a clearer understanding of whats going on but my current impression is that this meeting is perhaps (and most unfortunately) unlikely to happen. I have received no reply at all to my email to date.
We have formally informed GCC of our offer to support, assist and co-operate. Again recently but also many times over the years.
I'm keen to try to keep things factual (certainly regarding whats posted in the public domain) and as such, with the very limited factual information thats been made available, i have questioned the validity of my own personal assumptions regarding the actual status of the situation (which I'm the first to admit are likely to be well wide of the mark) in the same email to GCC. With the intention of learning at the proposed meeting the reality of the situation.
I sincerely hope the meeting can take place and that I receive a response soon. (Nick, if you're reading this, I'm referring to the last email i sent to M.C. (GCC Sec) on the 5th September).
I (and UCET) want nothing more that a happy conclusion and to build an environment of good will and co-operation. I really can't stress this enough.
We have formally informed GCC of our offer to support, assist and co-operate. Again recently but also many times over the years.
I'm keen to try to keep things factual (certainly regarding whats posted in the public domain) and as such, with the very limited factual information thats been made available, i have questioned the validity of my own personal assumptions regarding the actual status of the situation (which I'm the first to admit are likely to be well wide of the mark) in the same email to GCC. With the intention of learning at the proposed meeting the reality of the situation.
I sincerely hope the meeting can take place and that I receive a response soon. (Nick, if you're reading this, I'm referring to the last email i sent to M.C. (GCC Sec) on the 5th September).
I (and UCET) want nothing more that a happy conclusion and to build an environment of good will and co-operation. I really can't stress this enough.
If emails don't result in a reply, then pick up the phone! It's easy to ignore an email, Less so a direct call. I see plenty of evidence of emails being ignored in the work place. Of course, you may end up exhausting all avenues, but please do try. I sort of picked up that there may be positive vibes with Nick and Ian's comments, but that is the optimist in me.
