Andy Sparrow
Active member
Limestone_Cowboy said:
An interesting comment. Please do elaborate.....
Novices, lemmings, newcomers
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An interesting comment. Please do elaborate.....
L
Limestone_Cowboy
Guest
Andy, I didn't make that quote as I'm not a member of Eldon, it was Johnny who made the quote to which you refer.
I was talking about the training I do over here in Liverpool University Potholing Club.
I was talking about the training I do over here in Liverpool University Potholing Club.
Andy Sparrow
Active member
Limestone_Cowboy said:
Yes, sorry, this version of the forum doesn't seem to let you do a simple select and quote and my attempts at editing caused the confusion.
So over to Johnny for elaboration......
Rachel
Active member
Looking at first trips from another perspective, last year I joined a second club with the idea of getting out more often, and purposely scanned the meets list for a cave I'd done before that was well within my capabilities. As it turned out, I met lots of really nice, almost-sane cavers, but it was at the back of my mind before I went that I didn't want to be stuck at the bottom of a deep hard cave with a bunch of suicidal nutters. A big part about caving with people is how much trust you have in them, and trusting a total stranger to take you into (and back out of) a completely alien environment is a big thing. So if I were taking a friend underground for the first time, I'd probably go for a longer/more challenging trip than I would if I were caving with a novice I didn't know. And like someone said, it depends on how many experienced cavers you have and how many novices and how easy it is to get someone out quick if they have a wobbler in the first 10 minutes.
Johnny
New member
Andy Sparrow said:
Hello Andy
Limestone_Cowboy said:
Cavers wishing to join the Eldon will have to prove a level of caving ability/potential before being considered for aspirant membership. Aspirant membership, minimum one year, gives the individual time to develop thier skills. It also allows time for members to get to know the person and for the aspirant to get to know club members. Aspirancy is reviewed annually and the aspirant is either voted into the club or deferred.
I may be wrong but I do not believe that University caving clubs have aspirant membership prior to full membership and, therefore, there is no requirement for an individual to prove ability/potential prior to joining.
A
andymorgan
Guest
From my experience the Eldon approach seems a little unusual. Most (non-uni) clubs let you join after a few trips, when the club has got to know you... unless anyone else can give us other examples.
What sort of ability do you mean? Phyisical, technical, scientific etc...
From my experience as well, universities can have very steep learning curves if you want the challenge. We start with a very easy cave: Goatchurch, but I know of people who have been to -900m, 9 months after starting to cave. However if someone doesn't want to progress in that direction they are still welcome!
What sort of ability do you mean? Phyisical, technical, scientific etc...
Johnny said:
From my experience as well, universities can have very steep learning curves if you want the challenge. We start with a very easy cave: Goatchurch, but I know of people who have been to -900m, 9 months after starting to cave. However if someone doesn't want to progress in that direction they are still welcome!
Johnny
New member
andymorgan said:
I think you will find that I wrote ability/potential.
One example being, an aspirant will have to prove SRT competence prior to being voted in as a member, if a person is too scared of hieghts to attempt SRT there is not much point in joining. One of our members was scared of hieghts but he showed excellent potential and with a bit of nurturing his SRT is now fine.
SamT
Moderator
scared is an understatement.
He got about 10 feet up a rope in a tree when I first took him out and that was enough.
though he's now done Rowter,oxlow,JH,maskill etc so I think we can safely say he's conquered his fear (or more accurately - learned to handle it).
Just need to put it to one final test.............TITAN!!
He got about 10 feet up a rope in a tree when I first took him out and that was enough.
though he's now done Rowter,oxlow,JH,maskill etc so I think we can safely say he's conquered his fear (or more accurately - learned to handle it).
Just need to put it to one final test.............TITAN!!
Cave_Troll
Active member
possibly a bad idea at the moment due to instability of the boulder choke[/quote]
C
cucc Paul
Guest
Most caves have some vertical element to them... I've seen people turn to jelly on a life lined ladder pitch... Having said that as I looked across black hole in swildons on my first trip and saw the funny angles involved i double took before giving it a bash. Was a good trip though, taught me the value of mars bars
Andy Sparrow
Active member
Johnny said:
Johnny, as a matter of interest can you tell me this? What is the current membership of the Eldon compared to 10 years ago? What is the average age of club members? How many new members do you get in a year these days?
jasonbirder
Member
Hey - whats all this negativity about people being scared of heights!
I'm Scared of heights
Wary of SRT (I only do it as it, as it is marginally better than the alternative IE Ladders)
I'm terrified of ladders
Not that keen on squeezes either!
Can't think why I enjoy caving so much come to think of it...
In fact I have to confess that I always look forward to the sight of daylight at the end of a days caving!
Jason The Cowardly Caver
Poured from the same mould as The Owl who was afraid of the Dark!
I'm Scared of heights
Wary of SRT (I only do it as it, as it is marginally better than the alternative IE Ladders)
I'm terrified of ladders
Not that keen on squeezes either!
Can't think why I enjoy caving so much come to think of it...
In fact I have to confess that I always look forward to the sight of daylight at the end of a days caving!
Jason The Cowardly Caver
Poured from the same mould as The Owl who was afraid of the Dark!
Slug
Member
I'm not too keen on heights either, but, I always think of what Mike Harding wrote in His foreward to "The race Against Time".
"It's dark underground, You can't see the danger, so what would be a brown trouser job on the surface, is OK underground". or summik like that
There is more to caving than the vertical, and, if We, collectivly, wish our Sport/Passtime/Hobby ( I think Cosa Nostra is the best term- this thing of Our's 8) ), to continue, and grow, we need to attract new members. If that is to be the case, then I for One don't think that scaring the crap out of 'em is too good an idea. Start off with a simple & easy trip, then work up from there. Also remember that different people progress at different rates, and find their particular forte in a variety of ways, some are Great at Vertical, some Dive, some really take to/prefer Digging, it takes all sorts. It's that diversity that makes caving such fun.
"It's dark underground, You can't see the danger, so what would be a brown trouser job on the surface, is OK underground". or summik like that
There is more to caving than the vertical, and, if We, collectivly, wish our Sport/Passtime/Hobby ( I think Cosa Nostra is the best term- this thing of Our's 8) ), to continue, and grow, we need to attract new members. If that is to be the case, then I for One don't think that scaring the crap out of 'em is too good an idea. Start off with a simple & easy trip, then work up from there. Also remember that different people progress at different rates, and find their particular forte in a variety of ways, some are Great at Vertical, some Dive, some really take to/prefer Digging, it takes all sorts. It's that diversity that makes caving such fun.
Andy Sparrow
Active member
Johnny said:
Yes. From what you have told us the Eldon is an elitist club only open to accomplished experienced cavers. The old 'if you aint hard...' attitude, usually quoted as a joke, is applied very literally in your case.
We have one similar club on Mendip, once one of the biggest, and now in decline. The vast majority of the members of this club are retired and the active membership are ageing. It is not a club which facilitates or welcomes novices and this, in my opinion, combined with an elitist 'hard man' attitude condemns it to terminal decline.
Of course many, possibly most, clubs are in decline. "Well," they say, "that's just the way it is with caving these days..." Wrong. In Cheddar we have proved that a club organised in the right way can have a rapidly expanding membership. But to achieve this we have gone back to first principals and asked the question 'what do new members want from a club?'
Caving clubs are organisations often trapped in the past. For example some clubs have their committee posts inscribed in constitutions written over 50 years ago. There are clubs that cannot have training officers or webmasters without constitutional change.
Think of a club as being a business because in a sense it must function in a similar way. It needs to attract new 'customers' with new 'products'. A business sets objectives and then devises a strategy to attain them. A business constantly reviews management structures including the roles and responsibilities of administrators.
I think British caving is going to wake up to this eventually and it's going to dawn on us that we can reverse the decline and implement strategies to build vibrant and active clubs.
But a few clubs, still lumbering around, roaring and grinding their teeth in a Jurassic Park of their own making will face extinction...