Novices, lemmings, newcomers

[JB]

I see where you're going with this but you obviously don't understand The Eldon at all.

I'm an Eldon member - was quite new to the exploration side of things when I joined, come from a climbing/mountaineering background - and the club suits me perfectly. I've met some really talented and dedicated cavers/divers and learnt alot from them since joining the Eldon.

You say that organising a club in the right way can lead to a rapidly expanding membership. That's great/necessary if you're a Mendip club with a hut to support and also if you're a caving professional with a interest in the growth of the sport. Infact, it's you who thinks of caving in a business sense, not the Eldon team out digging/diving until midnight last night. All clubs don't have to be like yours and just because there aren't 500 members doesn't mean they're going to die out. There's other clubs that I probably wouldn't have joined because their focus is different to mine. It really wouldn't do for all clubs to be the same - cos we don't all want the same from our caving!

The inescapable truth is that whether you're alpine climbing or digging under a boulder choke you're more likely to stay safe if you surround yourself with people who know what they're doing. No?

 

[Johnny]

Yes. From what you have told us

Interesting use of the word "us" do you presume to represent the views of all users of this forum?

From what you have told us the Eldon is an elitist club only open to accomplished experienced cavers

I do not believe that my statement, below, mentions anything about experienced and accomplished cavers.

Cavers wishing to join the Eldon will have to prove a level of caving ability/potential before being considered for aspirant membership. Aspirant membership, minimum one year, gives the individual time to develop thier skills. It also allows time for members to get to know the person and for the aspirant to get to know club members. Aspirancy is reviewed annually and the aspirant is either voted into the club or deferred.

If you think that this attitude is ellitist, fine, dont apply to join the Eldon.
It sounds like you have some very large axes to grind, good luck with that.

 

[SamT]

Some may say the Eldon is Elitest, this however is not really the case.

Our membership simply says that newcomers have to join as an Aspirant. At the next AGM (or the one after that if it is felt that they joined too recently) they are either voted in/out or given another years aspirancy to get up to speed on whatever it was felt that they lacked experience/ability in.
This is not elitism.
This gives people who join an idea of whether they will like the Eldon, and also whether the Eldon likes them.

I would say the the Eldon are not a club that wants to spend time arranging meets list with specific venues and with bumbling around with novices. There are other clubs in derbyshire.

They want people who are up to the task (what ever that may invole) and are quite willing to nurture those people along on what ever their weakness's are.

If people want to get involved in either derbyshire cave exploration or go out on good sporting trips with other experienced cavers then the eldon would suit them.

I can think of 3 or 4 recent members who were not that experienced or even a bit of a novice who came along on a trip - either digging or a quick bosh down to the bottom of giants and back and loved it. Others wern't so keen. Some dicided they didnt like caving - others were still interested but joined another club.

Take lastnight for example, workmate of a member came along down bagshawe, only ever been down giants, now he's fit and slim, helped carry diving bottles to the far end, (lots of crawling), went for a jaunt round the cave with Bog then came back and helped sherpa out. Loved it. Didnt moan once and actually never appeared out of breath. Clearly he's got what it takes and is hopefully coming to the eldon pub meet next thursday. He's never even seen an SRT kit but I reckon we'll not have much bother there, couple of trips down giants/P8 etc.

To get down to brass tacks Andy.

If Im off down some cave, I dont really want to have my trip spoilt by some member who jepardizes the success of a trip by faffing at every pitch, taking an age to get along somewhere then jibing out at the first duck.
So hey - call me elitest.


There is also the mis-understanding that it is solely a digging club. This is not true. Prehaps some of the more active and 'vocal' members are involved with digs and exploration. But there are members who like to go out and do sport (and "sporting") trips. There are usually a few members who plan a club trip abroad too, in the past 2 years there have been 4 french trips and Slovenia that members would be welcome on.

Just to re-iterate - you dont have to be experienced to join - you just have to show some sort of natural ability and potential.

i.e. you have to be made of the right stuff.

 

[SamT]

The inescapable truth is that whether you're alpine climbing or digging under a boulder choke you're more likely to stay safe if you surround yourself with people who know what they're doing. No?

Bang on mate.

 

[scoop]

The enjoyment I get from my caving is seriously dependent on who I am with, not upon how competent they are. If they are totally inexperienced, having trouble doing the most basic of things, then as long as they are safe, and we are enjoying the experience, then I will have a good time. I can be with a perfect caver, never faulting, always super-fit, and I might have a really bad day. The people who don't enjoy their first trips don't join up. Those that do, go on to add value to the club and enhance the enjoyment of themselves and others. Going underground isn't about how good you are, it's about staying safe, and enjoying the experience without detriment to the cave or the cavers.

Summing up, I enjoy caving with novices just as much as I enjoy going with the elite. The enjoyment I get stems from who they are, not how they cave. If I have to abort a trip because someone isn't up to it, then I may be disappointed, but far better to find something else to do instead before it is too late for either party to enjoy the cave.

The members of my club always cave on the premise that we will always cave to the limits of the least experienced. If we have enough people around to arrange two trips on the same day, then those that want a bit of sport go off to do their thing, and the others have just as much fun looking after the newbies.

Scoop

 

[Andy Sparrow]

I would say the the Eldon are not a club that wants to spend time arranging meets list with specific venues and with bumbling around with novices.


I can think of 3 or 4 recent members who were not that experienced or even a bit of a novice who came along on a trip - either digging or a quick bosh down to the bottom of giants and back and loved it. Others wern't so keen. Some dicided they didnt like caving - others were still interested but joined another club.

I appreciate that you are all keen diggers in Derbyshire but in your case it is probably time to lay down the shovel.
Thank you for illustrating my point so graphically.
I rest my case m'lud.

 

[Johnny]

Andy

With respect, what are you on about?

 

[scoop]

Be careful, Andy, dinosaurs are still dangerous animals even if they are on the way to extinction! ;-)

 

[scoop]

others were still interested but joined another club

I can't imagine why! :roll:

 

[SamT]

let me clarify.

I can think of 3 or 4 recent members who were not that experienced or even a bit of a novice who came along on a trip - either digging or a quick bosh down to the bottom of giants and back and loved it. Others wern't so keen. Some dicided they didnt like caving - others were still interested but joined another club.

The 3 or 4 members I mentioned (note that - "members") Enjoyed the experience and are now full members. I have taken other people - one person didnt enjoy caving and probably wont go again. I took him on a Giants round trip so not some knarly digging trip. He was physically capable and is an experiened climber/mountaineer so fit enough. Has climbed El Cap so I reckon he'd be fine with SRT. However - he's terrifed of water so the Wind pipe was not for him. Not much point in him getting into caving then Full stop. He prefers spending time doing things he actually enjoys.

The other I mentioned came out with the eldon a few times but the orpheus suited his requirements more and I beleive is now a member there. So I didnt put him off either.

I appreciate that you are all keen diggers in Derbyshire but in your case it is probably time to lay down the shovel.

errr - *beep* off *beep*.

Ive resisted saying so far but one reason the eldon has an aspirancy system is so the other members have time to work out if the apirant is a complete and utter f**king Wanker or not. Know what Im saying m'lud.

Thank you for illustrating my point so graphically.
I rest my case m'lud.

And your point was again.

[edit - *beep* button used - admin]

 

[cap n chris]

I think (therefore I may be!) that there are many types of caving club, catering for many different interests in differing caving regions with different caving techniques and different geology; i.e. there's a lot of differences. It may also be easy to make assumptions that the differing types of caving club in a particular region (for example, Mendip) represent ALL the different types of club there can be; then it may be easy to fall into a trap that because a club in a different region (say, Derbyshire) has a FEW similarities with a club elsewhere (say, Mendip) this automatically means that the two clubs are twins and have the same negatives as each other (such a conclusion would be false).

Yes, there are clubs in decline (whether this is terminal will be proven in time) and there are clubs which are growing (but may yet decline!) and then again there are clubs with pretty much static memberships where everyone is at a similar level of ability. I can well imagine that a club where everyone is doing the same sort of stuff at a similar level of proficiency would wish to be quite sure that anyone wishing to join should be on the same level (or at least be able to achieve it in short order) and perhaps this is how Eldon see things. I think they do, judging from their description of acquiring newbies.

It is unfortunate to think that some clubs (probably the sort Andy is alluding to) have a "let's see if you are as hard as you reckon" attitude and proactively try to dissuade newcomers to caving by giving them a very rough ride from the outset on the grounds that if the newcomer puts up with it, they deserve to be let in; it may be coincidental that such clubs have an aged demographic but I suspect the two are linked!

My club's attitude is "Is there a reason why this person SHOULD NOT be allowed to join?". If the answer is "No" then their application is accepted; the club is designed with newcomers in mind and trips are aimed accordingly (just don't check out the club website `cos there's mostly "hard-ish" stuff left on the trip list for the remains of 2005! - which doesn't really tally with what I've just typed!). The "lead them gently" approach is one we have adopted as it matches the aims of the club.

I think this thread has contained some pretty curt comments, most likely based on misunderstandings .... and a presumption that there's only ONE WAY of running a club - any caving region will reflect a variety of club styles and these no doubt cater to the huge variety of people wishing to be underground engaged in pursuing their various interests accordingly.

I'd rather not witness a mild version of third world war based on misunderstandings!

BTW I hope your flu is improving, Andy, and that it's not affecting your otherwise friendly attitude!

 

[Johnny]

I have not always agreed with your postings Cap'n but I think th above is very well considered.

I do get nervous when people talk about caving and say it does not have to be physically demanding. As we all know, most cave environments can be extremely harsh and people need to enter the caving world with thier eyes open, it's every cavers responsibility to let newcomers know the risks they are taking by venturing underground. Even the easiest of trips can become difficult and new cavers need to be tought how to deal with what may arrise.

 

[andymorgan]

You say that organising a club in the right way can lead to a rapidly expanding membership. That's great/necessary if you're a Mendip club with a hut to support and also if you're a caving professional with a interest in the growth of the sport. Infact, it's you who thinks of caving in a business sense, not the Eldon team out digging/diving until midnight last night.

Our (Andy's club) doesn't have a hut to support and there is no financial gain to be had by having more members. By getting more members into the club does not increase Andy's income: he does stuff for free for us. The desire is to let more novices in, to continue the long term survival of the club.

I would say the the Eldon are not a club that wants to spend time arranging meets list with specific venues and with bumbling around with novices. There are other clubs in derbyshire.

They want people who are up to the task (what ever that may invole) and are quite willing to nurture those people along on what ever their weakness's are.

If people want to get involved in either derbyshire cave exploration or go out on good sporting trips with other experienced cavers then the eldon would suit them.


If Im off down some cave, I dont really want to have my trip spoilt by some member who jepardizes the success of a trip by faffing at every pitch, taking an age to get along somewhere then jibing out at the first duck.
So hey - call me elitest.

Novices have to start somewhere and ok you may get a few crap trips but you don't have to take novices out on every one , but as you say you take novices anyway....

I can think of 3 or 4 recent members who were not that experienced or even a bit of a novice who came along on a trip - either digging or a quick bosh down to the bottom of giants and back and loved it. Others wern't so keen. Some dicided they didnt like caving - others were still interested but joined another club.

Anyway caving is a varied discipline and there will be different clubs that cater for the different aspects eg; digging, scientific, conservation, sport and will look for different things in new members. I think what Andy is getting perhaps rightly or wrongly is that those that focus on specific tasks are less likely to continue in the future.

I a relative newbie (3 years caving) I find the attitude of the some of the older clubs far too arrogant and like old boys clubs, and would put me off caving even if I was hard enough or not to join, and this attitude needs to be changed otherwise I they will disappear. I think this is what Andy may be alluding to as well?

errr - *beep* off *beep*.

Ive resisted saying so far but one reason the eldon has an aspirancy system is so the other members have time to work out if the apirant is a complete and utter f**king Wanker or not. Know what Im saying m'lud.

Too right!

No need for personal abuse....

[edit - *beep* button used - admin]

 

[cap n chris]

Thanks Johnny

people talk about caving and say it does not have to be physically demanding

Once you're used to caving, it's easy to say this to someone who will later think you're a goddam liar! ... there are people/children out there in "normal-land" who have to lie down on the path approaching Goatchurch `cos it's more effort than they've had to do for years; many people get out of breath just changing channels on a remote; NEVER UNDERESTIMATE how difficult they will find their first caving trip, NO MATTER HOW EASY YOU think it is!

 

[cap n chris]

By getting more members into the club does not increase Andy's income: he does stuff for free for us. The desire is to let more novices in, to continue the long term survival of the club.

I think you'll find it on record somewhere that Andy is actually more concerned about the long term viability and survival of caving, full stop. It's not just a club-based concern!

Losing a potential long-term caver to the sport simply because they were given an undeserved beasting by a more experienced caver on their first "try-caving" trip (for whatever reason) is a loss not only to the individual concerned but also to other regional clubs - but if you know someone's not right for your club and pass them details of one which might be then that's a very good thing, to be applauded. The "problem" is when someone who is genuinely keen to get involved in caving is thoroughly scared off the idea by an unthinking "hard case" who makes their first experience a nightmare... this is a shame and should be frowned upon IMHO.

 

[SamT]

Cant be arsed with this topic anymore.

Chris simply asked


Should newcomers be taken on arduous "If you ain't `ard you shouldn't have bloody well come" epics to begin with or should they be gently taken by the hand and mollycoddled around something simple and undemanding?

the answer is clearly neither. There is clearly a spectrum and some of us land on one side - others on other. Nobodys right - nobodys wrong so long as everybodys safe.

End of.

 

[cap n chris]

the answer is clearly neither

Well spotted.

X or Y?
Why not Z?

I imagine there's still life in this thread, especially when you consider it's prompted over 50 responses in next to no time.

 

[kay]

I do get nervous when people talk about caving and say it does not have to be physically demanding. As we all know, most cave environments can be extremely harsh and people need to enter the caving world with thier eyes open, it's every cavers responsibility to let newcomers know the risks they are taking by venturing underground. Even the easiest of trips can become difficult and new cavers need to be tought how to deal with what may arrise.

Are you harking back to my earlier comment? What I meant was caving doesn't have to be about pushing yourself to your physical limits, challenging yourself physically. Yes, newcomers need to be taught the risks, and as a more experienced caver one has to be responsible for their welfare. Although many of the delights of the underground world will be barred to many, because of fear of heights, claustrophobia, or pure lack of fitness, there are caves to accessible to all abilities.

If physical challenge is the aim, there are many ways of achieving that, many of them not involving passing through a fragile natural environment.

 

[SamT]

yes Chris you're probably right.

I've calmed down a bit and apologise if I caused anyone offence.

This forum has (thankfully) been fairly free of flaming/trolling (deliberate and malicious provocation/inflammatory remarks on web forums/news groups for those who aren't so web literate) and I would like it to stay that way.
I thought from the onset Andy's comments were barbed and provocative so I guess he got what he was after.

Anyone who's been on a 'first trip caving' trip will know that you couldn't call it a beasting. Challenging perhaps but I'm sure they all enjoyed in one way or another and alright a few wont be back in hurry but I'm damn sure that they wouldn't be 'long term' cavers anyhow.

As for the Eldon, we are celebrating 50 years next year. We've survived this long with the policy, and achieved many things over the years, Notoriety being one of them. OK times are hard, and membership is perhaps not what it used to be but we are still attracting new members who are proving to be very valuable additions (you know who you are :wink.

At least the club is still way out there pushing the far end and pushing hard. Partying hard too I might add.

Of course there is room for all sorts of clubs as you say Chris, Andy can have his, we've got ours. I don't feel it necessary to make negative comments on Andy's club or its policies on a public forum - but hey, that's just me.

 

[Melanie lloyd]

As a committee member of 'Andys club', I for one would welcome your thoughts on any negative aspects you believe our club has. I'm sure Andy and the rest of our committee members would appreciate them also. Please don't worry about airing them publicly on the forum either as I'm sure our members are hard enough to take it. As a club, we like to think that we are always open to constructive suggestions for ways in which we can keep on improving in order to do our little bit to help reverse the decline in numbers. Your comments could prove most useful.