Peter Burgess
New member
Is Pluto allowed on the fells?
Observations on CNCC meeting
- Thread starter Badlad
- Start date
exsumper
New member
No plans for cash for access eh???? Hello Damian, Bob, Nick are you there?
http://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=about:documents:council_meetings:council_minutes_2013-10-05_draft.pdf
Appendix 1 is a reet good read.
mm: I think the shouty people are about to turn into screamy incandescent people!
http://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=about:documents:council_meetings:council_minutes_2013-10-05_draft.pdf
Appendix 1 is a reet good read.
mm: I think the shouty people are about to turn into screamy incandescent people!
Peter Burgess
New member
.. . which may not do your cause much good. The more you shout, the less sympathy you are likely to have from the bemused onlookers.
graham
New member
What I, for one, find fascinating about the documents that ex-sumper has just linked to is that this discussion document gets circulated, two long responses are received (& yes I wrote one of them) which are clearly, shall we say unwelcoming of it and then - even before the matter has been resolved, we get the Leck Fell commercial permit hoo-haa. Now, I am given to understand - and I have no reason to doubt it - that relations between CNCC & BCA are a touch less than perfect so I wonder about where the push for all this arises.
And, yes, I do find it alarming and, yes, Damian, I do remain concerned and shall do so until my justifiable concerns about this have been properly addressed.
And, yes, I do find it alarming and, yes, Damian, I do remain concerned and shall do so until my justifiable concerns about this have been properly addressed.
Bottlebank
New member
Unless I misread it there's nothing in there about cash for access, nor has it anything to do with this topic? BCA represent cavers including commercial cavers.
droid
Active member
The parallels between this thread and the Lathkill thread are quite remarkable.
Both are characterised by people asking questions. The questions aren't answered, or are answered in an evasive/equivocal manner.
So the questions are asked again. Repeatedly. The questionee then stomps off in a self-righteous huff.
It'd be bloody hilarious if the subject matter wasn't so serious.
Both are characterised by people asking questions. The questions aren't answered, or are answered in an evasive/equivocal manner.
So the questions are asked again. Repeatedly. The questionee then stomps off in a self-righteous huff.
It'd be bloody hilarious if the subject matter wasn't so serious.
Bob Mehew
Well-known member
Simon Wilson said:
I admit that in haste I made an error and picked the price of a shorter anchor not having details to hand - the specified anchor GP8 - 100 -16A4 is Euros 4.36, so yes my ?4 is a bit under. (There is also a small additional charge for numbering the anchors; Euro 0.5 I think.) The order I placed this week for some resin had a price of ?4 a tube which will normally cover several anchors. As for development costs, that is debatable since the anchor puller is being used to test a wide range of anchors and I anticipate it will undertake some other duties. And at around ?2000 (that is not an accurate figure as I do not have the details to hand but I expect it to be fairly conservative) spread over 2000 BCA anchors plus a range of other anchors types, I suggest the costs can be neglected in the basic comparison. (By the way lets ignore petrol costs and alike which were absorbed by the volunteers doing the work.) So using your approach I should have said ?6 to ?7 v ?16.
Re other post, I don't formally know the manufacturing process. But my expectation is the anchors are not cold formed as they would crack; I expect them to be hot formed and then stress relieved. One fundamental design feature that I liked of the ECO was the tang at the end. It meant that if the resin metal bond went, you still had to apply a significant force to extract the anchor by bending the metal through the resin impression. The twisted legs of the BP anchor increase that aspect to such an extent that it is the rock that is failing around the hole on axial pulls. I gather there are some good examples of this result in and around Yordas cave. If you have relevant expertise then please do volunteer.
Sorry for really going off the theme of the thread. If you really feel this needs further airing, can we discuss it by phone and then you can start a new thread.
Bob Mehew
Well-known member
exsumper said:
Apologies for the delay in responding but since 9am this morning I have spent 6 hours on another caving related problem, 1 hour chatting to an ill friend and 1 hour at my GPs, plus 3 hours for meal, chatting with my wife and doing house work before I started to read this mess of a thread and draft a reply. Perhaps I should go back to the quite waters of rope testing.
exsumper said:
See my reply to Simon re costs and cold forming.
Re wrong anchors, the position is that the supplier has agreed to replace all the anchors and also cover the costs incurred in resolving the problem. Yes it took a long time, partially because it was dependent upon volunteers doing a lot of work to demonstrate conclusively that they were not the ordered material. Re other post, none were installed in caves. You may be mixing up BP with Peco anchors where some were installed before we were alerted to the problem. See here http://www.cncc.org.uk/technical-group/locations.php for details of the resolution of those placed.
I am afraid I did not have the time to follow the detail of the 'plans for cash' theme; I am relying on others to arrive at a good solution. So I am not going to comment on something about which I have limited knowledge and if I did offer a comment, would no doubt be accused of misleading people.
But can we get back to the theme of the thread and focus on making CNCC even better?
ian.p
Active member
Hi Jules
There are quite a few different factors which have added up to create a situation that worries a lot of northern cavers.
Personally I have had a number of negative experiences with the CNCC in recent years both with regards to obtaining permits for a youth centred caving club (Education in the Environment Caving Club) despite being a BCA registered club on several occasions we have had to really box a certain officer into a corner before he would finally stop accusing us of being a financial enterprise and agree to issue permits (this went to the point of members of the CNCC googling members of our club and then when they found that one of our members was listed as running another not for profit caving event for an organisation called forest school camps (FSC) presenting this as proof that we were lying about being a legitimate club)
Last year I ran a hydrology project on Leck fell I think I spent more time trying to get the necessary permits from CNCC then I did any other part of the projects development constantly being told that the system was completely inflexible and allowing us permits to enter 3 caves on any one day completely impossible this whilst there existed a secret digging permit system that has been allowing cavers in the know to do as they please.
A few months ago my car was spotted on Leck fell I received an email that sunday asking why I was on leck fell without a permit as ULSA had no permit . The answer was I was caving with friends from MUSC who had a permit. They left it at that but what disturbed me was that I don't know any officers from the CNCC except through remote correspondence and there are relatively few if any northern cavers that I know who would want to drop me in it if I was pirating. So someone has gone to a significant amount of trouble to find out what I look like and what my vehicle looks like in order to keep an eye out presumably so they can undermine my position when next I cause trouble or just publicly humiliate me in a similar way to the York CC cavers a while back if ever I was to brake a rule. I don't like the idea that that senior members of my representative body are actively gunning for me.
Those are some personal experiences you will find a lot of similar story's if you go talking to many active northern cavers.
On broader topics the way CNCC has rushed through proposals for commercial permits for casterton and Leck fell without consultation with the ACI, Northern panel or any northern caving clubs is disgraceful the minuets from the meeting where this was done clearly show that this was rushed in in order to maintain complete control of access by the CNCC. There is a wider issue in this same vein around CNCC enhancing its control of access. A lot of northern cavers are no longer convinced that we are given the true story by CNCC as to landowners requirements re permits and we very rarely get straight answers when we ask difficult questions.
then there are issues around digging permits, not representing DIM's or independent cavers, the lack of transparency (they wont even publish the AGM agenda ahead of the meeting so we have all got to go in blind) and lack of consistency when administering the access system. I hope this goes some way to explaining why we are pissed of I should say I'm not the only person by any means standing there are a number of us and we wouldn't be standing if we didn't think that a lack of action at this stage may seriously damage northern caving.
There are quite a few different factors which have added up to create a situation that worries a lot of northern cavers.
Personally I have had a number of negative experiences with the CNCC in recent years both with regards to obtaining permits for a youth centred caving club (Education in the Environment Caving Club) despite being a BCA registered club on several occasions we have had to really box a certain officer into a corner before he would finally stop accusing us of being a financial enterprise and agree to issue permits (this went to the point of members of the CNCC googling members of our club and then when they found that one of our members was listed as running another not for profit caving event for an organisation called forest school camps (FSC) presenting this as proof that we were lying about being a legitimate club)
Last year I ran a hydrology project on Leck fell I think I spent more time trying to get the necessary permits from CNCC then I did any other part of the projects development constantly being told that the system was completely inflexible and allowing us permits to enter 3 caves on any one day completely impossible this whilst there existed a secret digging permit system that has been allowing cavers in the know to do as they please.
A few months ago my car was spotted on Leck fell I received an email that sunday asking why I was on leck fell without a permit as ULSA had no permit . The answer was I was caving with friends from MUSC who had a permit. They left it at that but what disturbed me was that I don't know any officers from the CNCC except through remote correspondence and there are relatively few if any northern cavers that I know who would want to drop me in it if I was pirating. So someone has gone to a significant amount of trouble to find out what I look like and what my vehicle looks like in order to keep an eye out presumably so they can undermine my position when next I cause trouble or just publicly humiliate me in a similar way to the York CC cavers a while back if ever I was to brake a rule. I don't like the idea that that senior members of my representative body are actively gunning for me.
Those are some personal experiences you will find a lot of similar story's if you go talking to many active northern cavers.
On broader topics the way CNCC has rushed through proposals for commercial permits for casterton and Leck fell without consultation with the ACI, Northern panel or any northern caving clubs is disgraceful the minuets from the meeting where this was done clearly show that this was rushed in in order to maintain complete control of access by the CNCC. There is a wider issue in this same vein around CNCC enhancing its control of access. A lot of northern cavers are no longer convinced that we are given the true story by CNCC as to landowners requirements re permits and we very rarely get straight answers when we ask difficult questions.
then there are issues around digging permits, not representing DIM's or independent cavers, the lack of transparency (they wont even publish the AGM agenda ahead of the meeting so we have all got to go in blind) and lack of consistency when administering the access system. I hope this goes some way to explaining why we are pissed of I should say I'm not the only person by any means standing there are a number of us and we wouldn't be standing if we didn't think that a lack of action at this stage may seriously damage northern caving.
