Ogof Draenen survey

[Speleokitty]

I have copied old surveys by photographing with a digital camera and printing using an online printing service. It costs about ?2 per sheet for a black and white print on A0 paper. They were my surveys so copyright wasn't an issueand it was better than stinking the house out with ammonia.

If you are worried about distortion then grid the plan before taking the photograph so you can measure position against the grid.

Kitty

 

[Clive G]

Yes, but maybe this might be due to the fact that the suggestion came from you. Surely it could be worth someone with no prior involvement in the situation having a go?

The original thread here was about being 'scared' to wade in. The suggestion that there might also be some sort of personal antagonism issue involved as well presents a whole new perspective for this discussion. I'm not going to promote such a view myself, unless anyone else wishes to come forwards and provide evidence in support of such a claim.

As much as I find it frustrating that I can't now buy a copy of the survey in the shops, or see it on the wall of the local caving club cottage, White Walls, I do have my own personal (paid for) copy of the September 1996 edition in three sheets. The point is, before people start asking for pirate copies or offering A0 printing services!, the survey is 12 years out of date and, in any case, the level of detail shown is far too great for planning sporting/tourist trips - which is how this strand originally began.

The suggestion to work with data which is currently commonly available and provide a new suitably-scaled plan for route finding around the major arms of the cave is just what would help the original enquirer, Rob.

As much as I find the present situation frustrating - with no detailed up-to-date survey being available - the idea of ripping off someone else's work, effectively in the form of 'an act of revenge' for their hiding it away in a cupboard, seems to compound the difficulty, rather than help us find a way around it and move on. Of course, anyone involved with producing the survey in question, who might be bold enough to take an initiative of their own, couldn't be accused of ripping off their own work!

 

[graham]

Clive, would it count as "ripping off" if this was done by some of the very many people who took part in survey trips down Draenen over the years and have been unable to see the fruits of their work?

 

[NigR]

The original thread here was about being 'scared' to wade in. The suggestion that there might also be some sort of personal antagonism issue involved as well presents a whole new perspective for this discussion. I'm not going to promote such a view myself, unless anyone else wishes to come forwards and provide evidence in support of such a claim.

Never meant to cast doubts as to your manhood, Clive. You are very brave to have made your suggestion to Arthur back in January but, come on let's be realistic about this, do you really think it was ever going to work?

I do have my own personal (paid for) copy of the September 1996 edition in three sheets.

Did you really have to pay for yours? I was given a complimentary copy in recognition of the contribution I had made by freely passing on the Grade 2 data, a gesture I much appreciated at the time.

Of course, anyone involved with producing the survey in question, who might be bold enough to take an initiative of their own, couldn't be accused of ripping off their own work!

This would be true if the survey was all the work of just one person but it wasn't, was it?

 

[Duncan Price]

The point is, before people start asking for pirate copies or offering A0 printing services!, the survey is 12 years out of date and, in any case, the level of detail shown is far too great for planning sporting/tourist trips - which is how this strand originally began.

Copying and redistributing the 1996 survey is a non-issue, just amounting to a reprint not a rip off. Users would have to accept it for what it is - particularly if it were done by the original publishers.

Producing an updated version is another matter - there are over 9000 stations in the dataset I hold meaning that producing any sort of survey (basic or otherwise) is non-trivial. The best solution is to get hold of what has already been drawn up and build on this. I believe that the majority of the principal surveyors would be ameanable to this.

BTW you can get the all the Llangattock data here: http://www.asheshouse.btinternet.co.uk/Cave_Survey_Data/Agen_Allwedd_Permanent_Survey_Marks.htm

 

[Clive G]

Clive, would it count as "ripping off" if this was done by some of the very many people who took part in survey trips down Draenen over the years and have been unable to see the fruits of their work?

Ah! So, there were more than two people involved in producing this survey - which some seem to have forgotten!

I would have thought that, given Arthur Millett hasn't seen fit to call a meeting by now, the floor is open for anyone else involved in producing the survey to do the same. Of course, invitations should be sent to everyone with a genuine involvement in producing the survey. It could be an 'open meeting' advertised by letter of invitation, where participants are known, but also by public advertisement, for where they are not. If this suggestion is initially of concern to Arthur, then: "I'm sad, Arthur, to see people's positive work for good turned upside down and commiserate with you that there has been no further progress made in the matter since last January - so here is my solution for enabling the way on to be found: as Jock and I did for you in the Llangattock caves many years ago and informed you first (St Valentine's)."

The purpose of the meeting should be to determine and organise the practicalities of publishing an up-to-date version of the survey - no more and no less.

If there is any objection to such a meeting being held then the meeting would first have to decide whether it has the authority to act or otherwise. I would suggest electing a chairman from meeting to meeting (not too many, I hope), out of those present, rather than trying to find a 'neutral' ombudsman - which process appears to have been defeated in the past. Nig is quite right here - there are some people who may be considered as being unacceptable to hold such a role by some of those involved with producing the survey.

Since John Stevens is also centrally involved in the matter and is either reading this strand silently, or busy house-building and diplomatically staying away from the question!, it needs someone else who has also had a regular involvement with producing the survey to be bold and take the initiative.

Anyone up for it?

Also, is there anyone reading this strand of the forum who might be prepared to give 'a person with initiative' their vote of support and encouragement - as I am prepared to do?

 

[cap n chris]

What is a "public advertisement"?

 

[NigR]

What is a "public advertisement"?

Presumably a notice in Descent and in places such as this forum advertising the meeting well in advance?

Also, is there anyone reading this strand of the forum who might be prepared to give 'a person with initiative' their vote of support and encouragement - as I am prepared to do?

Most definitely. Would Duncan Price be willing to take on this role?

 

[Duncan Price]

Also, is there anyone reading this strand of the forum who might be prepared to give 'a person with initiative' their vote of support and encouragement - as I am prepared to do?

Most definitely. Would Duncan Price be willing to take on this role?

Most definitely not.

 

[NigR]

Most definitely not.

Fair enough. How about John Cooper? (Does he read this forum? If not, perhaps someone could ask him.)

 

[Clive G]

Most definitely not.

Fair enough. How about John Cooper? (Does he read this forum? If not, perhaps someone could ask him.)

Actually, you have John Cooper to thank for my finding out about this discussion, but just to let him off the hook, it was my own choice to participate actively! In case John Cooper should prove anxious, then Paul Stacey also comes to mind - especially in terms of feedback given to me by other Croydon C.C. members on this question.

Otherwise . . . rabbits scuttling off in every direction!

 

[Duncan Price]

Paul would be a good choice - in particular he has (I believe) a complete copy of the drawn up survey.  To be honest, I don't feel that this can be resolved by committee/meetings.  It just needs a bit of action by one or two well-placed individuals.

 

[cap n chris]

Single person committees are highly productive.

 

[Clive G]

Single person committees are highly productive.

I quite agree, except I tried the single person approach in January and it hasn't worked (yet).

Paul signed up to the forum last night, so he is hearing what is being said, but is anyone who knows the 'history' of the survey going to want to take the initiative alone?

Two completely different approaches have been suggested: (1) draw and print a new survey aimed at helping people find their way around the cave using available survey data and, as required, organise some surveying trips to fill in the gaps where there are any critical omissions; (2) produce an updated version of the survey first published in 1996 with the support of those who carried out the survey.

What is now required is some feedback from those watching this discussion thread as to which approach they would prefer and actively give their support to.

 

[NigR]

Two completely different approaches have been suggested: (1) draw and print a new survey aimed at helping people find their way around the cave using available survey data and, as required, organise some surveying trips to fill in the gaps where there are any critical omissions; (2) produce an updated version of the survey first published in 1996 with the support of those who carried out the survey.

What is now required is some feedback from those watching this discussion thread as to which approach they would prefer and actively give their support to.

My suggestion would be to simply reprint the latest edition of the survey with a view to putting it on sale at the earliest opportunity. This would then generate funds which could be used towards producing an updated version at a later date.

 

[mudmonkey]

I'm hesitant to "stick my oar in" having done only one surveying trip (holding tape at the Geryon...) in 1996, but my view is most definitely that the 1996 survey should be published and updated - a lot of people put a lot of work into that survey.

From a personal point of view that trip was a bit of a highlight of my early caving career and hugely memorable - I find it very sad that such a mammoth effort, by a team who made me feel really welcome and part of the team even though I slowed everyone down and only knew how to hold a tape - has been under wraps for so long. I don't know the full political story but am grateful for the efforts that Clive and others are putting in to try and sort the mess out.

Here's where I show my ignorance. How many really significant finds have there been in Draenen since the survey work ended? I know the answer is probably "lots".....

 

[Clive G]

I'm hesitant to "stick my oar in" having done only one surveying trip (holding tape at the Geryon...) in 1996, but my view is most definitely that the 1996 survey should be published and updated - a lot of people put a lot of work into that survey.

Well, hesitation, yet coming forwards with a point of view, is far, far better than scarpering off.

There really needs to be more feedback here from people who have had some involvement with the survey, however little, yet are reading this column silently and saying to themselves, "Not me, not my problem." This also applies to anyone who has seen fit above to offer to make pirate prints from existing copies or just complain that they haven't got a survey to help them navigate around the cave.

However, from the small response that there has been so far, it does seem as though there is a move to suggest that the effort which has been put into producing a high quality survey of Ogof Draenen, being the work of more than just one or two people, should not be lost. But there might also be people out there who feel that the survey quite justly 'belongs' to one or two people and that we have no right to be discussing its future here. Well, in such a situation silence does no service to anyone, on either side of the equation.

Certainly, anyone who is going to even stand a remote chance of clearing the blockage, which has led in the past to the loss of the survey, is going to need rather more support and positive opinion than has presently been offered.

So, everyone who is avidly, but silently, reading these pages, waiting to watch the Christians being devoured by the lions, join in to ensure that the responsibility for the ultimate fate of the survey, against what you feel to be right and proper, does not tumble down on your shoulders.

 

[theFerret]

Just to add my point of view however insignificent. I have been in the system many times and the survey has been so useful, photocpied for trips from the outdoor centre i worked at. I do believe in exploring without them but a system this large, when you are very experienced and want to go far in and explore, the survey is invaluable. It seems mad to me that sooooo much effort was put into producing it that it isnt widely available!!! crazy - look at Easegill, full, accurate surveys available - they by no means state that you will find your way with them but for people that know ho wto read them and arent local they are brilliant. I may be wrong but if id ever produced such a survey it would be for others to enjoy and use - otherwise, whats the point!!!!????
I hope some reslove can be found to this situation and it can start to be re-published. Come on guys we only have one life, lets not waste a hell of a lot of brilliant work by many people.

 

[ken]

A really dumb question??.If many people were involved in this new survey (at least three from I have read), and only one (for whatever reasons whatsoever) is holding back progress?.then common sense would dictate that the results of the work should be divided as a group good or bad divided correctly according to the time and effort spent.
Copyright questions shouldn?t come into question here, as nothing has been printed or produced.
There must be something more involved in this than just one person refusing (for whatever reason).
Or is the group as a whole refusing to release the survey information?
There?s not much money to be made (if any), the respect (which is after all the only thing left when the active caving years are over) from peers for a hard job well done is nonexistent because the end product hasn?t been produced.
I?ve only seen cave surveys where the names of the surveyors (or resurveyers) are recognized, never who has refused to cooperate (for whatever reasons whatsoever). 

 

[dunc]

I may aswell bung my 2ps worth in. I had no involvement in surveying or anything else - I'm merely intrested in having a survey to either scan and take underground or to browse at after a trip to see where I've been. Only ever had one trip in Draenen and I've only a vague idea of where I went.

I would say try and do an updated reprint, that would be beneficial to the caving community - I'd certainly have one! Agree with theFerret that it seems mad that so much effort went into it and that it is no longer available.