hell little caver
New member
can i suggest a separate topic is started under UK caving? instead
hellie
hellie
Ogof Draenen survey
- Thread starter Rob
- Start date
Duncan Price
Active member
In the absence of anything better here's the processed centreline current to April 1998 (you'll need the SURVEX viewer to load it): http://www.sump4.com/downloads/ogof_draenen.3d
footleg
New member
Seeing as we are unexpectedly back on topic: 
I appears that the Draenen survey situation is too sensitive for anyone to have gone into any detail here, but I am wondering is there any expectation that the situation is going to change. i.e. Is there any hope of salvaging anything out of it, or is it worth having another go at getting a survey produced using whatever data can be salvaged from previous efforts and then re-surveying the missing bits? I am thinking along the lines of a creative commons style compilation of whatever data the surveyors are willing to make available under such a license, that way hopefully avoiding any future frustration that hard effort put into gathering data goes to waste due to the data never seeing the light of day (or darkness of the cave if you like to explore that way )
I appears that the Draenen survey situation is too sensitive for anyone to have gone into any detail here, but I am wondering is there any expectation that the situation is going to change. i.e. Is there any hope of salvaging anything out of it, or is it worth having another go at getting a survey produced using whatever data can be salvaged from previous efforts and then re-surveying the missing bits? I am thinking along the lines of a creative commons style compilation of whatever data the surveyors are willing to make available under such a license, that way hopefully avoiding any future frustration that hard effort put into gathering data goes to waste due to the data never seeing the light of day (or darkness of the cave if you like to explore that way
)The last I heard (some time ago) was that OUCC were re-surveying a centre-line themselves and that it was going well, the idea being that the data would be generally available to anyone who wanted it once it was completed. I've had a look at their website and can't find any mention of this so if anyone has a better idea of the current situation it would be interesting to hear it.
There is loads of older data freely available on the OUCC site and Morgannwg Caving Club may well have some more so it could be worth asking them. The problem with a lot of the older data (including much of the stuff I provided) is that it was only surveyed to Grade 2 at best (i.e. no clino readings) so it is of limited use when trying to tie it in with the rest of the cave.
Footleg's idea is a fine one and is, in my opinion worthy of support.
Footleg, as you appear totally removed from what has gone before why not try speaking directly to the principals involved? I'm pretty certain contact details for John Stevens can be found on the CSS website and I can pm you Arthur Millett's phone number if you think that might help.
There is loads of older data freely available on the OUCC site and Morgannwg Caving Club may well have some more so it could be worth asking them. The problem with a lot of the older data (including much of the stuff I provided) is that it was only surveyed to Grade 2 at best (i.e. no clino readings) so it is of limited use when trying to tie it in with the rest of the cave.
Footleg's idea is a fine one and is, in my opinion worthy of support.
Footleg, as you appear totally removed from what has gone before why not try speaking directly to the principals involved? I'm pretty certain contact details for John Stevens can be found on the CSS website and I can pm you Arthur Millett's phone number if you think that might help.
Cave Mapper
Member
caving_fox said:
A better climbing analogy would be going climbing without a guidebook. For a rock climber that would be a frustrating waste of time. You would wander along the crag until you found a likely looking line, then you would either walk up it because it was four grades easier than you're used to, or you'ld fail on it because it was three grades too hard. Alternatively, you would end up on some chossy route that everyone in the know ignores, when there's a magnificent classic route just around the corner.
C
Clive G
Guest
NigR said:
Hmmm. I agree with Nig on his remarks about finding your own way around caves because that is what a true explorer does. In OFD I'd also agree that a survey split up into handy A5-sized sealed laminated wallets could well help prevent an embarrassing call out . . . However, most of the 'long' Welsh caves have pretty well-defined features which, unless you're completely forgetful, can be used as navigation aids inwards and outwards. Don't forget to turn round and look at any complex junction which you've just passed coming in from the reverse angle, to see what it will look like on the return. Also, when you enter a multi-way junction you can build a temporary stone cairn out of 3 or 4 stones stacked in a pile in the mouth of the passage out of which you have just come and will need to use for your exit. Don't forget to knock the cairns down again when you've finished with them, otherwise every passage will end up with a cairn in it!
For the truly intrepid, prod the above-named two individuals with a (long) stick if you dare. In January this year I suggested to Arthur Millett forming a group out of everyone who has carried out surveying in Ogof Draenen and to work out between themselves how to publish an up-to-date version of the survey and what restrictions (if any) they may wish to place on people using the survey. However, really, if you haven't been surveying in the cave what can you tell them?
There is a long-standing tradition amongst cavers, which pretty well goes back to the origin of caving, which is that when you discover that what you require for an exploration isn't available in the shops, then you improvise by making one yourself.
The University of Warwick, with which caving club I started caving, used guide books where they were available, but most of the more epic trips resulted from the club secretary having a copy of Tony Waltham's book 'Caves' (London: Macmillan London Limited, 1974) and we just picked out various caves from it which looked worth visiting. The main danger you need to research properly is the potential for and consequences of a flooding incident and to make sure that the weather is OK on the day. This includes watching out for sunshine when the hills are covered in snow and forecasts for thunderstorms when it's otherwise a blue-sky day with a few fluffy white clouds around. Surveys, laminated, published or otherwise will tell you little of how to deal with obstacles underground, as opposed to personal knowledge gained by studying the underground geography and learning to navigate by sense, draught and angle of dip.
A
andymorgan
Guest
NigR said:
Is this what you are looking for? http://www.oucc.org.uk/DraenenSurvey/
There is a grade 2 survey published in the new OUCC Proc 14, plus stories and descriptions of some of the discoveries from 94-97.
cap n chris
Well-known member
Clive G said:
Sports caving and expedition caving differ.
Peter Burgess
New member
Supposing your trip is neither sporty nor explorationy? How do you categorise that sort of caving? Intellectual? Pottering? Or (shock, horror) 'Touristy'?
K
ken
Guest
Peter Burgess said:
how about just plain old fun?
C
Clive G
Guest
So, what is caving?
Just to 'put the cat among the pigeons', this is what Harold Lord (a cave surveyor who had 'strong views') told me many years ago:
?We went down the cave because it was a hole in the ground. It had an attraction of exploration that interested me and interested other people whom I chose to associate with. I liked the people: I liked the way they thought and the way they worked. Here we had a common ground where we could do something together. We were interested in doing it; we were interested in exploring the cave, in doing the survey, coming home and, this is the thing, this is why I can?t understand ?sporting? cavers or ?sporting? anybodies. When we left the cave the work had just started. The excitement was not in getting wet through, cold and miserable down there. The excitement was getting the protractor out and the drawing equipment and drawing and seeing the thing come to life on a piece of paper. And associating what you saw on that paper with all the hardships and the difficulties that you?d put up with.
We didn?t enjoy getting wet though and lying in water: I mean it?s just blooming nonesense. Anybody that does this is a masochist! What we enjoyed was the end product ? the survey!? (Harold Lord, 1987)
Caving is, and should be, fun! However, you're exploring whether you are doing a sporting trip in cave passages for the first time, finding new cave after a 'dig' in the UK or (digging and) walking into miles and miles of new passage on an overseas expedition.
BUT, if you're caving because it's hard and knocks pieces off you (and the cave as well when you go fast enough) then your views have no relevance to this topic concerning surveying in Ogof Draenen, but are worth debating elsewhere in the forum!
Just to 'put the cat among the pigeons', this is what Harold Lord (a cave surveyor who had 'strong views') told me many years ago:
?We went down the cave because it was a hole in the ground. It had an attraction of exploration that interested me and interested other people whom I chose to associate with. I liked the people: I liked the way they thought and the way they worked. Here we had a common ground where we could do something together. We were interested in doing it; we were interested in exploring the cave, in doing the survey, coming home and, this is the thing, this is why I can?t understand ?sporting? cavers or ?sporting? anybodies. When we left the cave the work had just started. The excitement was not in getting wet through, cold and miserable down there. The excitement was getting the protractor out and the drawing equipment and drawing and seeing the thing come to life on a piece of paper. And associating what you saw on that paper with all the hardships and the difficulties that you?d put up with.
We didn?t enjoy getting wet though and lying in water: I mean it?s just blooming nonesense. Anybody that does this is a masochist! What we enjoyed was the end product ? the survey!? (Harold Lord, 1987)
Caving is, and should be, fun! However, you're exploring whether you are doing a sporting trip in cave passages for the first time, finding new cave after a 'dig' in the UK or (digging and) walking into miles and miles of new passage on an overseas expedition.
BUT, if you're caving because it's hard and knocks pieces off you (and the cave as well when you go fast enough) then your views have no relevance to this topic concerning surveying in Ogof Draenen, but are worth debating elsewhere in the forum!
Peter Burgess
New member
Anyone who thinks caving is just an underground form of climbing (i.e. basically a sport) should finish the following:
Speleology is to caving as ******* is to climbing.
What is the scientific study of rock-faces?
Speleology is to caving as ******* is to climbing.
What is the scientific study of rock-faces?
Peter Burgess
New member
I don't think so.
C
Clive G
Guest
Peter Burgess said:
There's nothing wrong with tourist caving trips!
If you're taking photographs and/or writing up what you experience of the cave during the trip then you're contributing to cave science, which includes exploration. If you're having some exercise, seeing some interesting sights and chatting about it in the pub afterwards then you're participating in the sport of caving. Both are fine, depending on your point of view, but, on topic, I tend to agree with Harold Lord that, at the end of it all, producing a completed survey is the most satisfying and worthwhile way to round off all the effort expended.
Peter Burgess
New member
The shock horror comment was directed at those who have derided the concept of 'tourist cavers' in the forum in the past. I have no problem with it.
Duncan Price
Active member
andymorgan said:
The .3D data file and the compressed datafile appear to be corrupted. I'd like to compare both to my stuff and perhaps be able to merge the missing bits with my G5 data.
Perhaps the merits of having a survey, guidebook description, reasons for going caving etc. should be moved to a different thread.
