Ogof Draenen survey

[footleg]

Is this what you are looking for? http://www.oucc.org.uk/DraenenSurvey/

The .3D data file and the compressed datafile appear to be corrupted.

Must have been a download issue for you. I have just downloaded both and they are fine.

 

[Duncan Price]

Is this what you are looking for? http://www.oucc.org.uk/DraenenSurvey/

The .3D data file and the compressed datafile appear to be corrupted.

Must have been a download issue for you. I have just downloaded both and they are fine.

3rd time lucky.  Will see if I can join some bits together.  Would be useful to be able to reverse engineer the grade5.3d file into something approximating a .SVX raw data file.

 

[footleg]

is it worth having another go at getting a survey produced using whatever data can be salvaged from previous efforts and then re-surveying the missing bits? I am thinking along the lines of a creative commons style compilation of whatever data the surveyors are willing to make available under such a license

Footleg's idea is a fine one and is, in my opinion worthy of support.

I'd be happy to support such a project, but I don't think it would be sensible for me to try and run such an effort at least until I have finished my West Kingsdale master survey project in Yorkshire. If somebody closer to Wales is interested in getting something started I would be interested in helping survey anything that needed doing.

 

[graham]

Would be useful to be able to reverse engineer the grade5.3d file into something approximating a .SVX raw data file.

Right click on the 3D file, click on "convert for hand plotting" and it'll give you a list of co-ordinates. A SVX file can be built from co-ordinates using the "DATA Cartesian" option in Survex.

Not saying that still won't give you copyright issues, however, which is why our 3D files are explicitly being made available under a creative commons licence.

 

[NigR]

I'd be happy to support such a project, but I don't think it would be sensible for me to try and run such an effort at least until I have finished my West Kingsdale master survey project in Yorkshire. If somebody closer to Wales is interested in getting something started I would be interested in helping survey anything that needed doing.

But everyone in Wales who is aware of the history behind this is too scared to contact the only two people who could bring things to a satisfactory conclusion. Hence my suggestion that a brave soul from outside the area (with little or no prior knowledge of what has gone before) could be just what is needed. Any other takers?

 

[Les W]

I already tried. 

 

[Duncan Price]

Right click on the 3D file, click on "convert for hand plotting" and it'll give you a list of co-ordinates. A SVX file can be built from co-ordinates using the "DATA Cartesian" option in Survex.

Not saying that still won't give you copyright issues, however, which is why our 3D files are explicitly being made available under a creative commons licence.

Thanks - I thought that there would be an easy route.  It still won't afford a nicely drawn survey but I can use the LRUD data that I have to flesh out the passage dimensions.  I can probably then add in the OUCC data.

....If somebody closer to Wales is interested in getting something started I would be interested in helping survey anything that needed doing.

But everyone in Wales who is aware of the history behind this is too scared to contact the only two people who could bring things to a satisfactory conclusion. Hence my suggestion that a brave soul from outside the area (with little or no prior knowledge of what has gone before) could be just what is needed. Any other takers?

My view is that the survey will surface in time of its own accord.  Meanwhile if anyone local to Mendip has access to an A0 scanner then I know someone with a pristine 1998 survey to copy...

 

[Cookie]

My view is that the survey will surface in time of its own accord.  Meanwhile if anyone local to Mendip has access to an A0 scanner then I know someone with a pristine 1998 survey to copy...

Put it on the floor. Stand on a chair and photograph it.  :idea:

I do all my scanning with a camera these days.

 

[Clive G]

But everyone in Wales who is aware of the history behind this is too scared to contact the only two people who could bring things to a satisfactory conclusion.

Well, I wasn't scared to make a suggestion to Arthur Millett in January and yet, come July, we have seen no further movement. It could be that Arthur, in his reluctance to embrace new technology, has no idea as to what people are saying about the survey, either in this forum or anywhere else on the inter (what) net. Past 'history' may have a bearing here on people's willingness to communicate. In the end you can't force people to produce something which they feel is of most value hidden away.

What is of concern is the idea that people might be scared to confront an issue or a person. This implies the existence of a perceived threat. Do we want to build a caving community in this way?

On the basis of how the absent survey situation has developed since January, the move to get some sort of usable printed survey together, albeit to a less high standard, could well be the only way to make forward progress at present. Having said that, the appearance of a viable competitor can often have a remarkably stimulating effect. If nothing else, you can, as a result, start to identify the parts of a cave which will require surveying to a higher standard in the future.

Copyright, where there's very little money to be made, can be blown up in inverse proportion to its actual value. You ask permission of the interested person(s) - they say 'yes', possibly attaching certain conditions - and then you get on with it. If they say 'no' then there's also the concept of being unreasonably obstructed and, in certain circumstances, 'fair use' then kicks into play where you don't have to ask permission at all. Otherwise, you take your own photograph or draw your own survey. What you don't do is agree to unrealistic conditions or make an agreement that you have no intention of honouring later - the victimized and rogues excepted.

John Parker reckons you should "Find your own cave!" Personally, I think it's more fun sharing an exploration (along with the photographic, recording & surveying tasks, etc., which go with it), and working on the principle that there will still be quite sufficient left for everyone who looks in the right way to discover something for themselves. However, once 'territories' start being declared and the barricades go up, then the trouble starts.

In the end the book-keeping layout or even the symbols which you use on a survey are not necessarily to your own design or 'copyright'. However, if, as a community, we don't adhere to some sort of common 'language' which is freely available, then how are others going to understand or make use of what we produce? In arguing the difference between the existence of copyright (infringement) or otherwise, the word 'reasonable' should not be forgotten.

 

[graham]

Depends how good a result you want, Mr Cook.

Your method will not give a result which is either of a decent resolution or a precise alignment.

 

[Christian_Chourot]

My view is that the survey will surface in time of its own accord.  Meanwhile if anyone local to Mendip has access to an A0 scanner then I know someone with a pristine 1998 survey to copy...

Wish I'd had one to do OFD. Instead of spending HOURS scanning it in, doing overlaping A4 sections of my already (permanently) stuck together giant survey and then spending yet more HOURS stiching the pages back together in Photoshop before chopping it all up again in the right sized pieces.

Please tell me no one I know had access to one!! 

 

[Cookie]

Depends how good a result you want, Mr Cook.

Your method will not give a result which is either of a decent resolution or a precise alignment.

Many would be content with a mediocre survey now rather than a good survey sometime/never.

With a bit of ingenuity you can overcome the resolution problem. (Hint: more than one picture)

Yes ,the alignment will be rubbish, but it would help those who are looking for an aid to navigation. The alignment on the London Underground Map is wildly wrong yet people still find it useful.

 

[graham]

There are A0 scanners in Bristol, but AFAIK only on a commercial basis. If any cavers work for local scanning bureaus I've yet to meet them.

 

[cap n chris]

Do you happen to know how much it costs to scan A0 commercially? - after all, it's only got to be done once.

 

[Hughie]

Do you happen to know how much it costs to scan A0 commercially? - after all, it's only got to be done once.

Excuse my ignorance, but what size is AO?

A few years ago, when the "Intregrated Administration and Control Systems" was brought in, we had to have a large scale map of our farm made up (all fields on a single sheet at a particular scale) - called a "Super Plan"). The generation of this map was some ?400 IIRC, but the cost of copying it, I believe, was around ?10 at the time. I imagine with moving technology, it's cheaper now.
That was a map place on the water front near the industrial/maritime gubbins - I'm sure Graham will know of the place.

Btw, Elaine has just told me that it is indeed A0.

 

[graham]

Experience would suggest that a tenner would be ball park, once you locate one (try Rank Xerox). it certainly won't be much more.

 

[cap n chris]

Would gladly bung someone ?20 for a scanned version.

 

[Charlie]

Do you happen to know how much it costs to scan A0 commercially? - after all, it's only got to be done once.

Try the bristol university mech eng department, they will probably have A0 scanners and plotters in their autoCAD suite. you may have to plead with the IT guys for use.

you would be looking to pay 40-50p for an A0 black and white sheet.

 

[Christian_Chourot]

Surely what is really needed is the high-res scanned copy more than the actual printouts.

 

[NigR]

Well, I wasn't scared to make a suggestion to Arthur Millett in January and yet, come July, we have seen no further movement.

Yes, but maybe this might be due to the fact that the suggestion came from you. Surely it could be worth someone with no prior involvement in the situation having a go?

Would gladly bung someone ?20 for a scanned version.

Not sure I like the money aspect here as it may give some justification for the copyright concerns previously expressed. Having said that, what do you reckon a printed copy would bring on eBay?


Why doesn't someone just scan the survey (make sure it's the latest version), make a torrent and stick it up on Pirate Bay, posting a link on here? Can all be done anonymously and would solve everyone's problems (apart from those who created the problems in the first place).