Options for Connecting Jammers

[global_s]

Most people I've seen including me use a single length of static rope to make a safety cord and a foot loop. Is there any real word advantage to replacing this setup with a dyneema footloop? Is the reduced stretch noticeable on long pitches?

If using this setup would there be any safety advantage to making the safety link out of stretchy dynamic or if we end up falling on our jammer would this be the least of our worries?

Or am I getting the wrong end of the stick and these foot loops are more commonly used on french style systems where the long cows tail is used to attache to the jammer?

 

[Smiley Alan]

thats  the rig i use . from apline caving technices book .

 

[Brains]

I use a single length of static. It can also be untied to provide a useful length of rope in extremis. The safety cord part is not really long enough to make much of a difference in the event of a fall if it were dynamic rope

 

[topcat]

I use a single length of static. It can also be untied to provide a useful length of rope in extremis. The safety cord part is not really long enough to make much of a difference in the event of a fall if it were dynamic rope

Be an interesting test though.  I use 5mm dynema for foot loop and 8.5mm dynamic for safety cord because I think it will help in the event of loading [which is why it is there of course].

Mind you, I also use [at different times!] the Alpine set up mentioned above......

 

[andrewmcleod]

I use a Petzl dyneema footloop and Beal 5.5mm dyneema core cord for the safety link. Unless you are very close to the anchor, the static rope you are climbing will take more of the energy out than the safety cord anyway.

 

[Smiley Alan]

  Beal 5.5mm dyneema core cord for the safety link.

if you fall on  to a dynema  does'nt it brake your back ?

 

[Madness]

I use a 9mm dynamic safety connected to my hand jammer with a small screwgate krab. If need be I can use this as a third cowstail. Footloop is just a bit of 8mm static.

 

[Brains]

Likewise I attach to the jammer with a krab, handy for a third cowtail in some situations...

 

[Smiley Alan]

Likewise I attach to the jammer with a krab, handy for a third cowtail in some situations...

what situtions? why is'nt 2 enough ?

 

[mikem]

When you want 2 long cowstails (e.g. a high traverse line)

Mike

 

[andrewmcleod]

  Beal 5.5mm dyneema core cord for the safety link.

if you fall on  to a dynema  does'nt it brake your back ?

Depends how far you fall (and what fall factor) and what the other end of that dyneema cord is anchored to

If you take a small fall (say <1m) onto an ascender with more than a few metres of rope above you the fall factor will be small; most of the energy will be dissipated in the rope rather than the safety cord. In any event knot tightening is usually more important than cord/rope stretching for short lengths of cord/rope (e.g. cowstails, safety cords).

If you slide your ascender all the way up to an anchor then choose not to clip in a cowstail and instead climb high above the anchor and fall off, then yes bad things may happen to you

 

[ah147]

Just use my long cowstails and a white foot loop I bought off Tony. No safety cord for me. I try to cut useless stuff out my rig.


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[Smiley Alan]

  Beal 5.5mm dyneema core cord for the safety link.

if you fall on  to a dynema  does'nt it brake your back ?

Depends how far you fall (and what fall factor) and what the other end of that dyneema cord is anchored to

i kno all that . i ment falling on dynema . dynema is static so its like steel &  a slip fall on it can brake you back .  Its good  for flloot loop but  not for safty connectors

 

[mikem]

Just use my long cowstails and a white foot loop I bought off Tony. No safety cord for me. I try to cut useless stuff out my rig.

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Have you got it set up so you can't drop your jammer when changing over from down to up?

Mike

 

[ah147]

Just use my long cowstails and a white foot loop I bought off Tony. No safety cord for me. I try to cut useless stuff out my rig.

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Have you got it set up so you can't drop your jammer when changing over from down to up?

Mike

Yup. It's really quite easy if you follow the listed techniques.

 

[andrewmcleod]

i kno all that . i ment falling on dynema . dynema is static so its like steel &  a slip fall on it can brake you back .  Its good  for flloot loop but  not for safty connectors

And I know it too we have obviously just come to different conclusions about what is 'safe enough' (although if you knew, why did you ask the question?).

Drop tests of solid steel weights onto dyneema slings are useful and informative, but not realistic for small falls because people are squishy (so can safely absorb the energy of a _very_ small fall through deformation). The energy absorption of a short length of rope (dynamic or static) is very small (knots help). But it doesn't matter if you anchor yourself to the rope with something static if the rope can absorb the energy. The only time I am ever likely to use my safety cord is when climbing a pitch if my chest ascender pops off; maximum fall will be around a metre at most (probably less) and there is probably at least a metre above me unless I am very unlucky. In any event any significant fall onto an ascender runs the risk of cutting the rope...

If you are seriously concerned about reducing shock loads then use a commercial shock absorbing lanyard (occasionally used by climbers in winter for really sketchy gear).

 

[pwhole]

I have three-turn barrel knots at both ends of my dynamic safety cord and that I feel gives more than enough shock-absorption should I need it - with 7mm Maiilons at each end. A Dyneema footloop is a lot lighter and thinner than rope, and is the main appeal for me rather than lack of stretch, although it's lasted a lot longer too. I often hit myself in the face with the stored footloop when climbing boulder slopes (I did it on Saturday), and it's a lot less painful if it's lighter. It also means I can carry a couple of steel krabs on my rig without any significant gain in weight.

 

[Duncan Price]

Most people I've seen including me use a single length of static rope to make a safety cord and a foot loop. Is there any real word advantage to replacing this setup with a dyneema footloop? Is the reduced stretch noticeable on long pitches?

I have a large loop of cord which acts as a foot loop.  It is tied using a double fishermans which sits at the bottom of the loop where my feet go.  The loop has a figure 8 tied in it part way up from the bottom to form an extra step (like an etrier) which enables me to get higher up towards the top jammer to help with passing changeovers/rebelays etc.  The safety cord between my harness and the jammer is another cord loop which can double as a means to make a prussic loop if required.  Neither loops attach direct to the top jammer but through a large alloy delta maillon which I can use to replace my main maillon should I drop it.

 

[Fulk]

DP:

The loop has a figure 8 tied in it part way up from the bottom to form an extra step (like an etrier) which enables me to get higher up towards the top jammer to help with passing changeovers/rebelays etc.

That's an interesting idea; I take it from the very fact that you use it, you don't find a problem with the extra loop snagging. Might I make a suggestion ? an 'in-line figures of 8' (p. 76, ACT) might be marginally better than a standard figure of 8?

 

[Mark Wright]

The only time I am ever likely to use my safety cord is when climbing a pitch if my chest ascender pops off; maximum fall will be around a metre at most (probably less) and there is probably at least a metre above me unless I am very unlucky. In any event any significant fall onto an ascender runs the risk of cutting the rope...

I would say the only time a chest ascender is likely to 'pop off' is when passing a small re-belay loop going up and you would have a cow's tail in for protection during such a manoeuvre. The bottom re-belay on the West Route of Eldon Hole  (actually on the wall of the East Route) is a bit like that at the moment. The problem is not having enough rope to slot in the chest ascender without it coming out at the bottom at a very sharp angle. If the cam hasn't been closed properly on the new section of rope, the badly loaded chest ascender could release the rope. This situation often happens when the re-belay is some distance from the upper vertical line of the pitch, but, as I said, you would usually have a cow's tail attached to the re-belay anchor point or rope loop for protection. 

My safety cord and foot loop are made from a single length of 6mm accessory cord with a short length of 18mm tubular tape slotted over the cord to stiffen up where my foot/feet go. I store the foot loop inside the cam of the basic ascender and the two are connected with a screw gate carabiner. I consider my safety cord a method of preventing me dropping my ascender and foot loop, my cow's tails are for falling on.

I use a basic sit/stand technique for climbing and the foot loop element usually wears where the rope runs against it between my feet.

A year of climbing out of Eldon Hole has just worn out my last one, I replaced it yesterday. 

Mark