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Oxlow

owd git

Active member
i can't even tell family how skint i am. but if a cash job comes in i too would put  in .
Phil. other option was to help said sheep.( and I'm a veggie!!)  had to 'help' one at Giants a while back, despite the rest of t' party being of the disposition to eat the buggers. see one with a broken neck and the 'kin veggie has to doo the last 'kindness'  :thumbsdown:
best wishes to all at the farm.
O.G.
 

zomjon

Member
Don't worry Ric I'll put in for you - and remember there is a cash job waiting not a million miles from you.
Ps. I'll eat the little lambsies, but I ain't going bludgeon it to death!
 

martinm

New member
pwhole said:
Anyway, given they do so much for cavers, wouldn't it be possible for DCA-affiliated clubs (and connected individuals) to possibly organise a whip-round?

I think that's an excellent idea! I'd put a quid in, no problem. I'm sure clubs might be able to to donate a bit more, just to help the owners / tenants (can't rmbr which) out and promote good relations.  (y)
 

jonnyrocketboots

New member
I'll happily chip in to help with their fine as I think the sentence is way over the top.  15 month suspended sentence and a ?10k fine.  Am I right in thinking that giving them a 10 year ban from keeping livestock has removed their means of paying the fine?  And if the fine can't be paid then it's back to court to review the suspended sentence?

The alternative being community service or a prison sentence?  Talk about kicking a bloke when hes down....FFS



 

martinm

New member
Can somebody, Ewan maybe? Ask them what the actual situation re:- why the situation arose in the first place, the fine, suspended sentence, etc. then we can all get together and work out a way to help them. I'm sure they'd be very grateful of any support we could provide...
 

Mark Wright

Active member
I cannot support a call to contribute towards paying the fines of farmers who break the law in this way, regardless of how it may affect future access arrangements for the caving community. 

As well as the totally unacceptable mistreatment of animals in general, those many rotting carcasses could very easily have contaminated the underground water course and caused serious illness (or worse) to the human population further down the Hope Valley.

Whilst hill farmers may well be struggling in the current financial climate this is no excuse for this sort of behaviour and the conclusions and penalties handed down by the courts should be supported by all those who have a love of the countryside.

We do not tolerate those weekend users of the great outdoors who have a blatant disregard for the countryside environment and we should absolutely not tolerate farmers, who have considerably more responsibility for the countryside, who do the same.

I'm astonished at the amount of support that is being put forward on this forum and suggest you all have a serious think about what you are proposing. I'm sure if any moral, law abiding farmers with caves on their land read these postings they would be livid and probably ban cavers forever, and I wouldn't blame them.

Mark Wright
 

Mark

Well-known member
Mark Wright said:
I cannot support a call to contribute towards paying the fines of farmers who break the law in this way, regardless of how it may affect future access arrangements for the caving community. 

As well as the totally unacceptable mistreatment of animals in general, those many rotting carcasses could very easily have contaminated the underground water course and caused serious illness (or worse) to the human population further down the Hope Valley.

Whilst hill farmers may well be struggling in the current financial climate this is no excuse for this sort of behaviour and the conclusions and penalties handed down by the courts should be supported by all those who have a love of the countryside.

We do not tolerate those weekend users of the great outdoors who have a blatant disregard for the countryside environment and we should absolutely not tolerate farmers, who have considerably more responsibility for the countryside, who do the same.

I'm astonished at the amount of support that is being put forward on this forum and suggest you all have a serious think about what you are proposing. I'm sure if any moral, law abiding farmers with caves on their land read these postings they would be livid and probably ban cavers forever, and I wouldn't blame them.

Mark Wright

Well said Mark

Although I think they will find the future quite bleak, I am quite uncomfortable with the idea that we can save them, I think they should be left well alone, to deal with it in their own way, (they are grown ups) and we should accept the consequences of any changes of access should it arise.

On the other hand if anyone who actually knows them and wants to support them as individuals then Im fine with that, but lets not call it a DCA and affiliated clubs gesture.

I dont know what the outcome of the TSG meeting discussion was, but I am sure quite a few of the Eldon Members, if asked would be horrified at the thought of supporting someone who treats livestock in this way.



 

martinm

New member
And I'm astonished at anybody who is accusing them of doing something wrong with knowing all the facts.

Fact is, if you haven't enough money to feed your livestock, and some then die, then you can't afford to get to get them taken away and disposed of either. Like I said b4, disposing of dead livestock costs money, which they obv. hadn't got, ffs.  :confused:

Let's find out the facts first b4 making judgements please. I can't  get up there, but I'm sure someone on here could find out the facts, then let us know.  :coffee:
 

graham

New member
From Wikipedia

Recent strain on hill farming

Without government subsidies, many hill farms would have a negative income.[8] The high cost of land and machinery keeps many hill farmers from expanding.[8] Hill farmers in some parts of England have reported a 75% decrease in income over the past decade.[8]

Hill farmer income is subject to large fluctuation above the influence of the farmers.[9] The harsh terrain and climate of hill farms are hard on the animals, causing them to be relatively very unproductive.[4] Because of this, hill farming can have economic strains on the farmers who generally have low income.[4] Wet weather, as often experienced in the uplands, create additional animal feed costs for farmers.[9]

Many hill farmers earn around ?12,600, with some earning as little as ?8,000. This is much below the annual ?19,820, a single working adult requires to live in a village in England.[9] In 2008, a farmer would receive a profit of ?1 for a single moorland lamb.[5] The average LFA farm in England only earns about 66% of their total revenue from farming.[3] 22% of this revenue comes from the Single Farm Payment, and 10% from specific agri-environment payments.[3] The 2% balance originated from non-farm activities, which are usually associated with contracting or tourism and recreation.[3]

Hill farmers in Peak District National Park (PDNP) constitute one of UK?s most deprived farming communities, with farms in the LFA making an average loss of ?16,000 per farm, generating an average headline Farm Business Income of ?10,800 (supplemented by various government subsidies), creating a net income average per farm of about ?6000.[7]

The Hill farming sector in South West England, like farming in the rest of the country, has experienced a decade of much change associated with economic pressures and uncertainties.[10] On average, the financial position of hill farms in South West England, like the rest of country, is precarious. The average South West English Hill farm system in unable to match labour and capital invest in the business.[10]

Many farmers rely on a Single Farm Payment as a source of income.[9] These payments are expected to arrive in November or December, but sometimes farmers do not receive the money until June.[9] Due to this farmers are often unable to pay their bills or fix their machinery.[9] Some farmers have to cut back on the feed given to their animals, leading to a decrease in meat production and therefore lower profit.[9] By 2012 the Single Payment Scheme (or SPS), will only take into consideration the area of the farm.[5] This will decrease the income in moorland farmers to only 70% of what it was 20 years ago.[5]

The income from calves and lambs has remained constant, while the costs of farm upkeep have risen sharply (including items such as feed, straw, fuel, or fertilizer).[5] Because hill farming is becoming increasingly less profitable an increasing number of farmers have switched from the traditional hearty but less profitable animals which graze the moors to mainstream more profitable animals.[5]

Opportunities for farmers to supplement their farm income by working in industries such as quarrying or mining are largely no longer available.[5] The financial burden has taken a toll on many hill farmers, causing them to exhibit signs of mental health issues.[9] Many hill farmers are forced to generate supplemental income outside their farms or to take out loans.[9] Because of these economic factors, there is little incentive for younger generations to continue on with the hill farming.[5]

If you actually want to help Hill Farmers then start by insisting on buying their produce and paying more for it.
 

cavermark

New member
mmilner said:
And I'm astonished at anybody who is accusing them of doing something wrong with knowing all the facts.

Fact is, if you haven't enough money to feed your livestock, and some then die, then you can't afford to get to get them taken away and disposed of either. Like I said b4, disposing of dead livestock costs money, which they obv. hadn't got, ffs.  :confused:

Let's find out the facts first b4 making judgements please. I can't  get up there, but I'm sure someone on here could find out the facts, then let us know.  :coffee:

A conviction has been made, which was based on certain facts. I agree with the Marks that people should make their own decisions where they stand on this.
I know several farmers in my family, none of whom would let animal welfare become a problem, however hard times are.
 

jonnyrocketboots

New member
Ok good points guys and well put across, While I find myself agreeing with you I can't help but feel the sentence passed on to these farmers  is a bit on the harsh side to say the least.  I know what life is like 'on the inside' and believe me it's a place a 58 year old hill farmer would be very very uncomfortable with.
So I would still be happy to help as much as I can to prevent that from happening.
 

Mark

Well-known member
mmilner said:
And I'm astonished at anybody who is accusing them of doing something wrong with knowing all the facts.

Fact is, if you haven't enough money to feed your livestock, and some then die, then you can't afford to get to get them taken away and disposed of either. Like I said b4, disposing of dead livestock costs money, which they obv. hadn't got, ffs.  :confused:

Let's find out the facts first b4 making judgements please. I can't  get up there, but I'm sure someone on here could find out the facts, then let us know.  :coffee:

Read the newspaper links Mel

mmilner said:
I think that's an excellent idea! I'd put a quid in, no problem. .....

With generosity like this they will be back on their feet in no time
 

Mark Wright

Active member
With all due respect to mmilner, all the facts of this particular case were put before the courts and considered by professionals in the field of law and the sentence passed down after due consideration of the severity of the crime. Whilst some might consider the punishment for mistreating animals and causing potentially very dangerous environmental issues to be excessive, they should perhaps contact their local MP and try to change the law.

Until such time as the laws of the land are changed and peoples morals and attitudes with respect to the mistreatment of animals change then we should accept the findings and punishments of the courts. If anyone who's work involves looking after livestock cannot afford to carry out their business in line with current legislation and best moral practice then they should cease to be involved in such a business and not continue to mistreat animals until they are forced by the courts.

If you think it acceptable to mistreat animals on the grounds of affordability then you are perfectly at liberty to make your personal ?1.00 donation to the farmer in question but not under the name of the DCA and certainly, in this case, not under the name of my club, the TSG. I would struggle morally continuing my membership of a club which supported such a move. 

Mark Wright
 

martinm

New member
Graham, thank you for that sobering information, a real heads up. (Esp. the bit:- "creating a net income average per farm of about ?6000"! Wow.) I found this info today:- Following disposal costs were considered based on reference: ?90 per cow, ?15 per sheep, ?12.50 per pig and ?0.65 per bird.

Look on these sites for more, though you will have to search more for costs:-

http://www.defra.gov.uk/ahvla-en/disease-control/abp/fallen-stock-faq/

http://www.nfsco.co.uk/

I'm not speaking for DCA or any club, just saying  let's learn about what's happened  and more importantly why. I sort of agree with many of the points made above, but let's get more info please, they have given us access over private land to Oxlow and Maskhill (and Nettle?) for many years and I personally cannot see them neglecting animals on purpose.

(NB:- I think more farmers commit suicide in the UK  than in any other industry sector. Wonder why....  :-\ )

IMHO, of course. Regards Mel. DCA Conservation Officer
 

Peter Burgess

New member
There is a gaping gulf between condoning poor animal treatment, and in encouraging someone to get a normal life back. Doing the latter does not equate to accepting the former in any shape or form.

Why would anyone not want to see things back to how they should be as soon as possible? Providing "support", even if only a demonstration that you care about what has happened and stop to have a chat, for example, can do wonders for someone who is at rock bottom.

I wonder if refusing someone the right to have livestock for a period is not so much a punishment for those convicted, as a protective measure for the creatures enforced until the situation resolves itself one way of the other.

Preventing someone from a course of action is often about protecting others. A driving ban will protect members of the public from someone convicted of a risky driving offence. If a ban is not permanent, the hope is that the offender will take the opportunity to sort themselves out.
 

Gollum

Member
Did they support cavers or were they just collecting money for access/ parking?
Have we lost access?
Have we got an access officer to sort access issues?

Sorry but they broke the law and now pay the price.

I don't know the facts and I don't really want to.
 
In two minds over this...as individuals they've always been Caver friendly and friendly enough in the Wanted Inn...but can't condone Animal neglect of any kind...and anyone who spent time on their land or at their farm won't be surprised by this...

The key question though is...does it make it more or less likely I'll get savaged by the rabid Collie...as I'm ALWAYS the one that gets volunteered to pay the trespass fee!!!!

 

Moose

New member
Do not feel sorry for these people for one minute, they deserve everything they have had served on them and probably a lot more.

I have been reliably informed that they have not taken/sold any stock at market for as long as they have been there, they keep their stock almost as a hobby. They spend many thousand of pounds a year on importing feed for the poor creatures mainly because they aren't able to manage the land to support them which is probably where all the subsidies go.

The irony is that I believe that Jenny is a social worker and as they are not married then although she has been banned from keeping animals all that will actually happen is there will be a transfer of names to Roy and the sorry process will continue.

In the severe snow we had last March/April there wasn't a farmer in the whole peak district who had their sheep out lambing in that snow we had, that is except for Oxlow Farm.

Damn them......
 
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