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PDCMG meeting: Draenen access

peterdevlin

New member
I sent the following on the SWCC mailing list, but Peter CW has asked me to post here instead as this forum has a thread structure. Peter also asked Lou to post likewise. Lou's email was much more articulate and persuasive than my own, but i feel i should let her post here.


Folks,

I understand that at the forthcoming PDCMG meeting the SWCC representative is planning to abstain on the question of opening the second entrance to Draenen on the basis that there has not been sufficient opportunity to canvass SWCC member to get their views.

I personally believe that the second entrance of Draenen should not be opened in order to protect the cave. As an active member and committee member of Red Rose CPC I am only too aware of the conservation risk posed to the Easegill system by the multiple entrances of the system. I feel it would be a great shame to jeopardise this jewel of Welsh caves without full consideration.

On that basis I would like to propose that the prudent response in Friday's vote is to vote against opening the second entrance, as once the decision is taken to open the entrance it will be less easy to undo. If after further consideration the SWCC membership decides to support the opening of the second entrance this decision can be taken at a later date. An abstention on this question risks being a vote in favour.

I  spoke to Lou Maurice on this topic last night and she agrees that the prudent choice at the present time is to vote against the opening.

I apologise for the wide email distribution on this email, but felt that given the meeting is coming up fairly soon I would rather air on the side of over-communicating my opinion.

Many thanks,
Peter
 

peterdevlin

New member
I've been informed that Lou is en-route to Greenland, so i am taking the liberty of posting the email she sent earlier today:

Dear all,

Apologies for the wide email and for reiterating what Steve and Pete have already said but I think it is important that the caving community considers the issue of the Ogof Draenen second entrance very carefully. 

It is clear from the damage in systems like Easegill and OFD that the outstanding formations and sediments in Draenen would be severely impacted if they were within 1-2 hours of an entrance.  But to my mind preservation of remoteness and wilderness is also important because it provides cavers the opportunity to experience the challenges of long trips and understand what remoteness is and how it feels, a vital skill for expedition caving abroad as well as being an extremely rewarding experience in its own right.  There are thousands of caves in the UK where you can be a short distance from an entrance but only a handful where you can truly experience remoteness and wilderness.  Remoteness is rare in UK caving and rarity is something that should be preserved.  The opening of additional entrances will erode this wilderness and new cavers will lose the opportunity to experience the rewards of long remote trips.

As Ogof Draenen was found relatively recently we have an opportunity to learn from past conservation mistakes (in caving and in the wider community).  We should  preserve both the physically unique formations and the rare experience and sense of achievement that cavers who visit them enjoy for future generations. 

best wishes,

Lou Maurice
 

peterdevlin

New member
About the discussion and vote to take place at the PDCMG meeting this Friday about re-opening the second "rescue" entrance to Ogof Draenen.

This is a very important issue, both in itself for the future of Ogof Draenen, and as bringing to the fore general issues of caving conservation.
I understand from talking to Lou Maurice this evening that SWCC will be sending a representative with a mandate to abstain in the vote.

I am completely opposed to the opening of this entrance, and I hope and expect many SWCC members feel the same way. There has been a long and intense discussion about this in the past, and I do not propose to rehearse all the arguments again.

But, in summary:

The further reaches of the caves are still in a good state of preservation, with their wonderful formations (mud floors as well as calcite!) in near-pristine condition. There is a real sense of remoteness there , too, increasingly rare even in caving today. This is well worth preserving for all and should not be sacrificed. If a rescue in the remoter southern regions did need rapid access, this entrance could be uncapped easily; the only reason for opening it now is for the slight temporary convenience of a few people. The far reaches of the cave are still readily accessible for exploration from the original entrance. Yes, they are tough trips. I was on the teams originally exploring several of the remoter regions; I'm getting a bit past it now and may never see them again - but so what? The current tigers can and do still do get there and do good work.

Look at what has happened to the "trade routes" and the passages near them in ease gill and even in OFD.

Let us do our very best to conserve Ogof Draenen. It is one of Wales' and the UK's jewels of the underground. We should treat it as it deserves.

Could I ask please: (1) that the SWCC vote is to oppose opening of this second entrance; (2) that since this is primarily a conservation issue, an SWCC member with a strong interest in conservation be the delegate to the meeting? [I now gather that Bernie Woodley, the new conservation officer, will be our rep.]

Steve Roberts

 

NigR

New member
As Peter quite rightly points out, the SWCC representative has been instructed to abstain in the event of any vote relating to further entrances to Ogof Draenen.

This decision was taken at the last SWCC committee meeting after protracted discussion and deliberation.

Bit late to try to get things changed now isn't it?
 

Ali Garman

New member
Hi All,

FYI - This is the last letter that SWCC sent on the subject of Draenen 2nd entrances......

"14 January, 1996

Dear Chris & Judith

Ogof Draenen

Many thanks for your letter regarding Ogof Draenen. Firstly my apologies for the late reply to your letter. Unfortunately I did not receive the letter until after the November Committee meeting and the December meeting was during the week before Christmas. I am just catching up following all the interruptions to routine that the last few weeks involves.

The Club Committee felt that it could only comment on the situation in the light of Club's experience with OFD which many might see as a fair comparison. It was generally felt by the Committee members that the opening of Top Entrance in OFD led to the deterioration of the Cave in that area, and if were faced with a similar situation now would not favour the opening of a new entrance either to make access easier for cavers in general, or purely for rescue purposes.

Whilst it is accepted that some members of the club may take a contrary view we believe that the above would be the view of a majority of our members, indeed more than one member involved in thhe original opening of Top Entrance regrets the decision made at the time, having viewed the damage to OFD that resulted from this.

Once again, please accept my apologies for the late reply, and I hope this arrives in time for your meeting.

Your in caving

Alan Wood: Hon Secretary"

This letter pre-dates the PDCMG. You will notice that the date is 14 months before the 2nd entrance was opened and therefore anyone who thinks that the 2nd entrance was closed undemocratically or unilaterally needs to go back and do a little more research.

cheers
Ali

PS. There was little or no knowledge outside of the SWCC committee that this topic was being discussed, prior to the committee's decision. The decision is now filtering out to the membership.
 

pete_the_caver

New member
I think the fact that the land owner doesn't want the second entrance opened makes this whole discussion pointless.  If it is opened then those using it will be trespassing and therefore liable to prosecution.

I don't think cavers should even consider opening this entrance because the local goodwill of the land owners is vital for continued access to this and other caves.  If a land owner were ever to take this to court a can of worms would be opened:  In New Zealand ( a country with the same Common Law as the UK) a court decided that a land owner owned the passages below his/her land and in more than one case land owners went caving to hand out tresspass notices.
 
T

TimL

Guest
Taking the opportunity to add my tuppence worth. Keep it to a single entrance, the remoteness of parts of draenon is a key part of its charm
 

graham

New member
pete_the_caver said:
I think the fact that the land owner doesn't want the second entrance opened makes this whole discussion pointless. 

Nothing more to say, really.
 
S

SGR

Guest
Nig says "As Peter quite rightly points out, the SWCC representative has been instructed to abstain in the event of any vote relating to further entrances to Ogof Draenen. This decision was taken at the last SWCC committee meeting after protracted discussion and deliberation. "

.. which only adds to my frustration that I knew nothing about this issue being on the agenda, being discussed or the decision that was made. Do committee agendas get sent to club members, or made available to them, in advance of meetings so that they have notice of what will be discussed? If so, how and where? If not, why not?

Steve
 
C

Clive G

Guest
peterdevlin said:
I sent the following on the SWCC mailing list, but Peter CW has asked me to post here instead as this forum has a thread structure . . .


I personally believe that the second entrance of Draenen should not be opened in order to protect the cave. As an active member and committee member of Red Rose CPC I am only too aware of the conservation risk posed to the Easegill system by the multiple entrances of the system. I feel it would be a great shame to jeopardise this jewel of Welsh caves without full consideration . . .

To second entrance or not to second entrance . . . ? THAT is the question . . .

OR is it?

It is essential that there is an alternative way into Ogof Draenen other than the present single entrance, if for no other reason than the height of wet, lubricated boulders stacked up behind a few (stout?) pieces of pipework that would bend like matchsticks if a sufficient inrush of water destabilised the heap. How many days/weeks/months would it take to reopen such a choke? How long did it take for the original diggers to get through this section? Think of the collapses which have taken place in the very wet First Boulder Choke of Ogof Craig a Ffynnon.

In fact, who actually created the scaffolded section? Do we know their names? Who supplied the scaffolding? What have the various interested parties done to try and ensure the safety of those passing beyond the results of their handiwork?

You can't go presenting 'conservation' reasons as a satisfactory defence when human safety (or the lack of it) ends up coming under the spotlight as being the most pressing factor to be considered.

All the above said and done, when I went to investigate on Saturday 22nd February 1997, from inside the cave, the current 'second entrance' which had reportedly been 'collapsed by persons unknown' (according to Duncan Price who told me), I indeed found this to be the case. However, even though I'd never seen the dig before, it didn't take long to dig the collapsed spoil out of the way and make an exit via the part-scaffolded and boarded-over exit. It took a few moments to work out that whereas it was impossible to lift the covering timber lid from underneath, owing to the heavy stones which had been placed on top of it, it was actually quite a simple job to slide the cover sideways and then make your exit. As likewise did the other two cavers who had kindly assisted me with the 'dig'.

We re-covered the hole behind us both out of politenes to the diggers who had created it and also, most importantly, for safety reasons - to stop people and animals from falling down it by accident.

When we walked back we had to get near to the Lamb & Fox Inn where our vehicles were parked (and beware these days of leaving unattended cars on open moorland some distance from any form of habitation, owing to car thieves). The first problem was the grass slope around the entrance which we just about managed to ascend without sliding rapidly down the hill. If this entrance was to be reopened then there would have to be some form of steps cut into the hillside to make the exit uphill safe.

However, then we did the death-defying traverse via a 'sheep track' (all that is left of the old tramroad where the cliff has encroached towards the western end) along the top of Pwll Du Quarry, by moonlight and our fading caving lamps from the long trip underground . . .

I would say that if you reopen the current 'second entrance' then, when it's icy, there is a strong chance that one day someone will fall off this track during winter and they won't end up landing in any particularly deep pool of water to break their fall when they hit the ground some 25 m below.

It's just not satisfactory to go for a new additional entrance to a cave if you haven't thought about and made satisfactory provision for access on the approach to and departure from that entrance. Look at the accidents which happened on the steep grass slope outside Ogof Draenen during the first few weeks of exploration of the cave in 1994 - via the current main entrance . . . But there was a valid excuse then that it was a new dig (draughting very strongly) and no one could have guessed that the system behind it would turn out to be so significant or extensive.

Having dismissed the current 'second entrance' from a safety point of view, I would like to suggest that there comes a time during the exploration of a cave when you either have to give up or consider camping in the cave in order to be able to explore and push its remotest limits safely - in terms of sheer tiredness when returning from a long hard dig at the furthest limits. But, then what do you do when you eventually find that the drive home from the long exhausting weekend spent camping and digging at the furthest limits in the cave is sending you to sleep at the steering wheel?

Finally give up exploring?

Well, there is another way, which suggests that you look at where you've reached in a cave at the remotest limits, decide whether all you're going to find is a quick way back out to the surface again (as with OFD Top Entrance) or, instead, a technically challenging (and sporting) connection with another cave or even several more miles of hitherto unexplored cave. In the first instance you could certainly present a convincing case to me as to how pursuing such an entrance would be harmful to the conservation of the cave's remotest regions. However, if a new entrance or connection was to be made in a satisfactory location, which would enable the further exploration of the cave in the safest manner hitherto possible, then it would be foolhardy to object for reasons that such an entrance would 'change' the cave.

By 'change' I mean footseps appearing on clay/mud floors where none had existed before, along with all the other 'conservation' difficulties. But remember 'conservation' is about slowing down the rate of 'change'; whereas 'preservation' is about mothballing a find and preventing further 'change' from occurring.

Don't forget to distinguish between 'change' by human intervention and 'change' by the forces of nature, through the likes of occasional acute or chronic flooding or unstoppable tectonic forces . . . There's no point preserving a cave and preventing people from enjoying and studying its qualities, just for nature to wipe it and its formations out in a single huge (or not so huge) natural disaster. And is a so-called natural disaster a disaster at all? All caves are naturally in the process of formation and collapse - moving gradually from one state to the other - and those which we currently still have access to have just not yet totally collapsed.

If you didn't want the cave to be 'changed' then you should never have explored it in the first place. If you only want to 'change' the cave yourself and stop other people from 'changing' it as they see fit then you'd be acting in a selfish fashion. If you can present a good reason why leaving specific obstacles in place in a cave (such as the pitches in Daren Cilau) will help cut visitor numbers down, without exposing people to unnecessary risk (provided they have the proper training and experience to tackle those obstacles safely, even if the obstacles still present a demanding challenge), and therefore help protect the more vulnerable and remoter areas of the cave from being 'trashed' - then I say "all power to your elbow".

Likewise, if you come up with another way of tackling the remotest digging sites by 'changing' the means of accessing those remotest sites (as with the Pwll y Cwm diving entrance via Terminal Sump at the World's End into Daren Cilau) - then I also say "all power to your elbow".

Each case - and by this I also mean entrance - should be tested on its own merits. As soon as you start trying to 'control' exploration in advance of that exploration being carried out then you are breaking the very principle by which your own breakthrough was possible and was achieved. i.e. Without the written consent of the original landowner for access - which you instead assumed to be your right as 'cave explorers', and the landowner either accepted such a situation (as has been the case on Llangattock Mountain, so long as any surface entrances to digs are left in a safe and covered state), turned a blind eye to it or just didn't know what was happening.

Whether it's by digging in a wholly unsatisfactory place to spite others (perhaps in an attempt seize control of their 'find'?) or you realise that you're putting up arguments against others doing exactly what you have done in the past when achieving your own success, then the time has come to start helping others with their projects, instead of politicking and manipulating to the 'nth degree' - to avoid running the process of successful cave exploration and cave discovery into the ground and ineffectiveness.

 
S

SGR

Guest
Clive said
"If you can present a good reason why leaving specific obstacles in place in a cave (such as the pitches in Daren Cilau) will help cut visitor numbers down, without exposing people to unnecessary risk (provided they have the proper training and experience to tackle those obstacles safely, even if the obstacles still present a demanding challenge), and therefore help protect the more vulnerable and remoter areas of the cave from being 'trashed' - then I say "all power to your elbow".
"

This is exactly the point; in this case distance is the obstacle. There is no un-necessary risk; if the current entrance DID become impassible, the "rescue entrance" is there to be uncapped.

he also said
"if a new entrance or connection was to be made in a satisfactory location, which would enable the further exploration of the cave in the safest manner hitherto possible, then it would be foolhardy to object"
... however in this case, exploration is already "enabled"; and is safe; all that opening the 2nd entrance will do is to make it a rather easier to get to the vulnerable south-west area. So in my view we do have "a convincing case to me as to how pursuing such an entrance would be harmful to the conservation of the cave's remotest regions"

Steve
 

Ali Garman

New member
Hi All,

SGR said:
.. which only adds to my frustration that I knew nothing about this issue being on the agenda, being discussed or the decision that was made. Do committee agendas get sent to club members, or made available to them, in advance of meetings so that they have notice of what will be discussed? If so, how and where? If not, why not?

In the absence of anybody else answering Steve's question, my understanding of the event sourrounding this vote are :-

  • Nig phoned Tony Baker 2 days prior to the committee meeting, presenting his side of the case and asking that the SWCC committee discuss this and instruct their PDCMG rep accordingly.
  • Nig emailed Tony a proposal that he said was being submitted for the PDCMG agenda. I don't have the wording, but it was a generic proposal asking the PDCMG to reconsider its position on second entrances.
  • I believe Tony forwarded this to the committee and pointed them at the uk caving forum on the matter, which I personally would not consider to be a good source of facts.
  • Tony mentioned in the long common room on the Friday night that this subject was being discussed the following evening. Tony received a robust response from the randomly collected audience, I don't recall a single person arguing for the opening of a second entrance.
  • The SWCC committee discussed the matter, presumably at length, on the Saturday evening.
  • I heard on the grapevine a few days later that their decision was to abstain.
  • A week or so later, as PDCMG secretary, I received the official proposal from Garimpieros. However the wording was significantly different to the proposal discussed by the SWCC committee, stating that a specific entrance should be opened with immediate effect.

?Grwp Ogofeydd Garimpeiros propose that the current (blocked) second entrance to Ogof Draenen be re-opened with immediate effect in order to encourage and facilitate exploration in the further reaches of the system.?

I'm happy to be corrected on any of the above.

cheers
Ali
 

NigR

New member
Ali Garman said:
I'm happy to be corrected on any of the above.

Just to reiterate:

The SWCC committee decision to abstain applies to any vote regarding the opening or re-opening of any further entrances to Ogof Draenen, not just one particular motion. It also applies to any policy decisions which may be made regarding other entrances to the cave in the future.

Surely that is easy enough to understand?

I am confident that the SWCC representative at tonight's meeting will do precisely as he has been instructed to do by the committee - i.e. abstain if any vote takes place.

 

Ali Garman

New member
NigR said:
The SWCC committee decision to abstain applies to any vote regarding the opening or re-opening of any further entrances to Ogof Draenen, not just one particular motion. It also applies to any policy decisions which may be made regarding other entrances to the cave in the future.

Hi Nig,

Yes thanks, that is easy enough to understand. I'm sure it is the case but where did this fact come from? I haven't seen the minutes of the last SWCC meeting.

See you later
Ali
 

Jopo

Active member
From Nig
The SWCC committee decision to abstain applies to any vote regarding the opening or re-opening of any further entrances to Ogof Draenen, not just one particular motion. It also applies to any policy decisions which may be made regarding other entrances to the cave in the future.

Thank you for that interpretation Nig. I am sure the SWCC committee will take notice of your opinion.
However the vote was on one particular motion, the one you forwarded to the chairman.
I for one reserve the right to change my mind in the light of argument.

Jopo
 

NigR

New member
Jopo said:
Thank you for that interpretation Nig.

Wouldn't call it an interpretation - it's what I was told by two different people after the meeting.

Either they got it wrong or I misunderstood, doesn't really matter either way.

Don't worry, I won't be bothering the SWCC committee with this issue again - it's not worth the hassle.

From what I've heard tonight it's too late anyway - "nightmare secret multi-entrance scenario" here we come!

Oh well, at least I tried.
 

graham

New member
I'm interested.

The landowner says, or so I am told, that he does not wish a second entrance on his land and, as far as I am aware, any potential such entrances would be on his land. So, if the GOG's resolution were to be accepted, what would happen? Would cavers acting with the apparent support of the PDCMG open a second entrance without consulting the landowner, thus imperilling access for all cavers?
 

NigR

New member
graham said:
I'm interested.

Glad you are interested, Graham.

Regarding the stance of the landowner, don't believe everything you have been told.

Obviously, the landowner should always be consulted before any further entrances are opened up (or current entrances re-opened).

In any case, the third entrance is on a different landowner's land.

Also, the potential fourth entrance is on land belonging to someone else again.

Not too sure where the fifth will be yet so can't really say about that one.
 
M

McBad

Guest
NigR said:
graham said:
I'm interested.

Glad you are interested, Graham.

Regarding the stance of the landowner, don't believe everything you have been told.

Obviously, the landowner should always be consulted before any further entrances are opened up (or current entrances re-opened).

In any case, the third entrance is on a different landowner's land.

Also, the potential fourth entrance is on land belonging to someone else again.

Not too sure where the fifth will be yet so can't really say about that one.

So Nig, just how many entrances do you intend that Ogof Draenen should have? 

What are you ultimately aiming for - one entrance per mile of passage?  Is your objective just to turn the cave into another Porth yr Ogof, or what?

FWIW (and as one of the original diggers, discoverers and explorers of the cave) I'm more than happy with just the one entrance, for all the reasons expressed by Peter and Lou and others on this and other threads.

M.
 
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