PDCMG meeting: Draenen access

[graham]

If we end up creating a second entrance, well so be it.

A view shared by many, regardless of how it is achieved, whether accidentally or deliberately, the outcome remains the same.

Because cavers have got no self-control and satisfying their urges to visit and explore is the only thing that counts.

Have we learnt nothing from all the caves that have been trashed down the years?

 

[graham]

Still, it won't really matter in the future 'cos when the oil runs out and transport is rationed, anyone wanting to visit the far reaches of Draenen will have to walk there from the centre of Cardiff, anyway.

 

[dunc]

Have we learnt nothing from all the caves that have been trashed down the years?

No.
Let this generation of cavers trash various caves and then the next generation can look back and shake their heads in disbelief of what damage was done, oh and of course find new caves with new formations and things worth preserving... :-\

I have some experience of attempting to conserve a precious cave, being Chairman of the RFDCC who, with GSS and Hades try to look after Otter Hole. We administer the access procedures, as instructed to do so by the landowner. Whilst we are content to do this, in order to maintain access for all, we are also actively digging in the hope of securing a second entrance. This would give us a superb through trip, with hopefully fewer (or no) access restrictions.

Assuming a connection was made what diiference would this entrance make in respect of through trips - would the landowner of the current entrance suddenly allow unrestricted access (exits) via that entrance?
And would a second entrance that may or may not (I have absoloutely no knowledge of the dig or where it 'might' connect) allow year round and increased access to what is (to quote your words) "a precious cave" that is currently protected reasonably well by nature?

 

[Peter Burgess]

1) Why do we go caving? Primarily because it is fun and exciting. Whether the people I cave with are unusual I cannot say, but the vast majority of them admit that conservation comes a poor third to fun and excitement.

It is possible to have exactly the same amount of fun and excitement with conservation as your top priority. I have been going underground for over 30 years so I speak from experience.

Caves are not like little boys' bedrooms. You cannot untrash a cave.

 

[Andy Sparrow]

Have we learnt nothing from all the caves that have been trashed down the years?

No.
Let this generation of cavers trash various caves and then the next generation can look back and shake their heads in disbelief of what damage was done, oh and of course find new caves with new formations and things worth preserving... :-\

In my opinion this is emotive nonsense.  Which caves have the current generation of cavers trashed?  Give examples.  I think the standards of cave conservation today are excellent and most cave systems testify to this. 

 

[graham]

Have we learnt nothing from all the caves that have been trashed down the years?

No.
Let this generation of cavers trash various caves and then the next generation can look back and shake their heads in disbelief of what damage was done, oh and of course find new caves with new formations and things worth preserving... :-\

In my opinion this is emotive nonsense.   Which caves have the current generation of cavers trashed?  Give examples.  I think the standards of cave conservation today are excellent and most cave systems testify to this. 

Depends how you define "the current generation" but opening Top Entrance undeniably had a poor effect on OFD. I could also point at certain extensions in certain Mendip caves that were better decorated when discovered than they are now.

Many lessons have been learnt by many cavers, for sure, but some of the comments in this thread demonstrate that these lessons need to be restated at regular intervals.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Have we learnt nothing from all the caves that have been trashed down the years?

No.
Let this generation of cavers trash various caves and then the next generation can look back and shake their heads in disbelief of what damage was done, oh and of course find new caves with new formations and things worth preserving... :-\

In my opinion this is emotive nonsense.   Which caves have the current generation of cavers trashed?  Give examples.  I think the standards of cave conservation today are excellent and most cave systems testify to this. 

If you define "current generation" as an arbitrary "all active cavers since 1979" (last 30 years, and more of less when I started) then Swildons Hole is the prime example for me. Many cavers just treat the place as a cheap version of an "Aquasplash Leisure Centre" with little regard for the cave as more than a fun place to play.

There are many minor discoveries made in various Somerset caves since 1979 - of those in uncontrolled sites, how many are in anything more than a 'poor' to 'destroyed' condition today?

It is not an emotive statement - it is a observation based on sad experience.

 

[dunc]

In my opinion this is emotive nonsense.   Which caves have the current generation of cavers trashed?  Give examples.  I think the standards of cave conservation today are excellent and most cave systems testify to this.  

Whilst I can't think of any that have been completely trashed (lets say in the last 10years), I will give one example of a cave that is in the process of being damaged by careless cavers. Notts II, in particular Curry Inlet; the signs are there and unless some cavers start being more careful down there it will become despoiled. And this has happened in less than 10 years of 'dry' access being made available.

So no, not emotive nonsense, it seems some people are too blind or ignorant to see what damage can or is being done, which is a rather sad reflection on caving.

I'll admit cave conservation is good today, but, that doesn't mean people should become complacent. Improvements can probably be made and as Graham points out lessons need to restated at regular intervals in the hope that damage can be kept to an absoloute minimum.

 

[me]

Caving conservation is NOT good in today's generation, a few examples that immediately come to mind:

stalactite repair - some advice needed
? on: July 08, 2009, 10:28:11 am ?

Re: Dick heads in Swildons
? Reply #10 on: September 01, 2006, 02:23:08 pm ?

I also remember a hand print in the moon milk in Pierre's Pot, someone being sick in Goatchurch and a large turd having to be removed from a cave recently as the perpetrator or Friends did not clear up after themselves?

 

[Andy Sparrow]

Caving conservation is NOT good in today's generation, a few examples that immediately come to mind:

stalactite repair - some advice needed
? on: July 08, 2009, 10:28:11 am ?

Re: Dick heads in Swildons
? Reply #10 on: September 01, 2006, 02:23:08 pm ?

I also remember a hand print in the moon milk in Pierre's Pot, someone being sick in Goatchurch and a large turd having to be removed from a cave recently as the perpetrator or Friends did not clear up after themselves?

These examples are not representative of 'today's generation' of cavers.  This about something else - people on the fringes who venture into open novice caves, who are outside the sphere of club caving. Compare this wth caves where any sort of access control exists.  OFD is given as an example of a cave that has been adversely affected but I find this strange.  OFD looks to me to be in excellent condition - apart from the clumsy buggers who keep walking into the Trident. 

Caving has an impact on caves.  Passages like Curry Inlet are vulnerable to accidental damage and sometimes it is inevitable - why is Doomed Grotto in Swildons so named?  If we were talking about a new entrance to Draenen that led straight through Medusa's Children these arguments might be more relevant - but I don't think we are.

 

[graham]

- why is Doomed Grotto in Swildons so named? 

I don't have any references to hand, but from conversations with some of the people concerned, they were well aware of the example of "Balch's Forbidden Grotto".

A classic example: half way through the G.B. boulder choke is an alcove on the right, decorated and taped off. In the back of it is a tiny alcove that looks like there might be a tiny passage there. I have found people on the wrong side of that tape "checking out" that alcove more times than I care to remember. One time, as we arrived, the idiot was calling back to his mate "It doesn't go". he was a bit surprised, but sadly not all abashed, to be told "No, it doesn't, that's why it's taped off, you fuckwit."

 

[Peter Burgess]

Caving conservation is NOT good in today's generation, a few examples that immediately come to mind:

stalactite repair - some advice needed
? on: July 08, 2009, 10:28:11 am ?

Re: Dick heads in Swildons
? Reply #10 on: September 01, 2006, 02:23:08 pm ?

I also remember a hand print in the moon milk in Pierre's Pot, someone being sick in Goatchurch and a large turd having to be removed from a cave recently as the perpetrator or Friends did not clear up after themselves?

These examples are not representative of 'today's generation' of cavers.  This about something else - people on the fringes who venture into open novice caves, who are outside the sphere of club caving. Compare this wth caves where any sort of access control exists.  OFD is given as an example of a cave that has been adversely affected but I find this strange.  OFD looks to me to be in excellent condition - apart from the clumsy buggers who keep walking into the Trident. 

Caving has an impact on caves.  Passages like Curry Inlet are vulnerable to accidental damage and sometimes it is inevitable - why is Doomed Grotto in Swildons so named?  If we were talking about a new entrance to Draenen that led straight through Medusa's Children these arguments might be more relevant - but I don't think we are.

Andy you may well be right, but as these things do happen, perhaps the question of whether it is indicative of current generation of cavers is irrelevant. These are examples of caves where access is not limited or controlled, and where physical access is comparatively easy. This suggests to me that the easier access is, both politically and physically, the more vulnerable a cave is. Its nothing to do with how wonderfully conservation minded cavers are except in one regard. If cavers are so conservation minded these days ,why do they seem so happy to allow tossers (who they probably don't consider to be real cavers) free access into sites to trash them?

 

[pete_the_caver]

Still, it won't really matter in the future 'cos when the oil runs out and transport is rationed, anyone wanting to visit the far reaches of Draenen will have to walk there from the centre of Cardiff, anyway.

Not me, Just a 20 minute walk... once walked from my back door did a round trip and was home in a nice hot shower in under 4 hours and not a drop of petroleum was harmed in the process.  Mind you, a new entrance on Gilwern Hill would be even closer... I could be out of the cave and into the swimming pool in under 5 minutes.  Now that's what I call apres Draenen

 

[menacer]

I appreciate the wider caving community's views are being sought but it would be nicer to have an idea of where the new entrance are proposed to be, and why, and from the flip side how the people against it seek to enforce it?? - (genuine questions not being deliberately troublesome)

As it currently stands- to do any surface dig at the mo, landowner permission is sought. Providing this is granted a dig may commence.
If those against 2nd entrances win their case, how is it to be policed??
One concern I have for the future (say the other entrances were prevented) how do you determine who should or shouldnt dig into a cave and where and when. Will everyone refer to "the draenen entrances vs " case and stop everything.

Will a nanny state of seeking BCA permission to start any dig, with environmental impact reports become the way of UKcaving. :read:

Just an Idle mathmatically thought, if there was an Inny and an Outy some distance apart, then visitor trips to the cave could double before there was any noticable environmental impact on the cave as it stands now.

eg, If put in the right location it could be argued a second entrance could reduce traffic as it will no longer be a 2 way trip.

I agree with andy s though that if the entrance was put right next to say Circus maximus with no access control, the formations would likely be trashed in no time...that would be sad- not least because I need to return as my camera packed up last time (or is that unenvironmentally friendly of me)

 

[slippery_matt]

These examples are not representative of 'today's generation' of cavers.  This about something else - people on the fringes who venture into open novice caves, who are outside the sphere of club caving. Compare this wth caves where any sort of access control exists.  OFD is given as an example of a cave that has been adversely affected but I find this strange.  OFD looks to me to be in excellent condition - apart from the clumsy buggers who keep walking into the Trident. 

There was the vomit in bat passage...

 

[Les W]

Will a nanny state of seeking BCA permission to start any dig, with environmental impact reports become the way of UKcaving. :read:

BCA does not and cannot control digging or access.
These things are within the domain of the landowners and any access bodies directly charged with them.

 

[Ship-badger]

I am back, after having a good read through some of the early reports of the discoveries in Ogof Draenen (Descents 121, 122, 123). The word that cropped up again and again in those early reports was "excitement" or "exciting". The other thing that was commented on was the length of new passages being explored on trips. The only real mention of conservation was the description of the attempts to protect the formations in Gilwern Passage with expanding foam.

I am not criticising the original explorers; I wish I had been there, and if I had I would have notched up equally impressive distances in new passages. The point I am making though is that conservation did not appear to be their main concern at that time, so why is it now? Perhaps it isn't?

How about this for an idea? If you want to gain an impression of what cavers think, ask the question at Hidden Earth. I know from experience that this forum is most definitely not a good barometer of the opinion of Mr Average Caver (at least not the ones in our Club). Why not organise a debate at this year's HE, with the Motion "This House believes that Ogof Draenen should have multiple entrances". Each side could have 20 minutes or so to put across their points, for and against the motion, and there could be a vote at the end. This would give everyone a better idea of what most cavers think. What happens after that would still be up to the PDCMG, but at least they would know what a lot of other people think.

The trouble is of course, that probably only about 3 people would bother to turn up (but I would be one of them)

 

[menacer]

BCA does not and cannot control digging or access.
These things are within the domain of the landowners and any access bodies directly charged with them.

this is off topic now but BCA partly funds access bodies and therefore does  have a say in stuff surely...

 

[Les W]

BCA does not and cannot control digging or access.
These things are within the domain of the landowners and any access bodies directly charged with them.

this is off topic now but BCA partly funds access bodies and therefore does have a say in stuff surely...

No not at all,

From the BCA Constitution
4.5 That the owners and tenants of property containing caves have the right to grant or withhold access.
Where caving bodies have control of access delegated to them by the owners, such access should be
obtained and granted as freely as possible for all responsible cavers, within the terms of those
agreements. When obliged to make new agreements, the appropriate body should endeavour to ensure
that this freedom is maintained or improved.

This recognises that the owner of the land is the ultimate controller of access

11.1 The Association shall not interfere in the affairs of a Member unless specifically requested to do so by
that Member. The Association shall not mediate between Members unless requested by them in
writing to do so.

This ensures that BCA shall not interfere in the business of its members (i.e. Regional Councils, Clubs, Access controlling bodies, etc.)



BCA does fund the Regional Councils from central funds but does not control how they are spent, except that they must be spent within the "core funding headings"

The regional councils are not obliged to seek permission from BCA concerning their spending plans, they just have to justify any funds that they are claiming.

If BCA decide the claim is not part of core funding then the Regional council must pay it from their own funds. BCA does not have any say in how access/digging is controlled or otherwise. It is not "Big Brother" with world domination and total centralisation as its objective, rather it is an enabling "umbrella" organisation that exists to help the caving community and deal with national bodies such as Government.

 

[Roger W]

The point I am making though is that conservation did not appear to be their main concern at that time, so why is it now?

Unfortunately, conservation often only becomes a concern when so much damage has been done that people start to become aware of what has been lost... 

This doesn't only apply to caving, of course.