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Peak District Rigging Guide. CCPC
- Thread starter wellyjen
- Start date
In my mind there is something a little sad about a rigging guide for something so simple as Eyam Dale shaft. I understand the benefits of guides for complex pitches or multipitch caves but surely working out the best way to rig a pitch is part of caving.
If you can't rig something so simple without a guide then I really have to wonder if you should be rigging or leading a trip at all.
If you can't rig something so simple without a guide then I really have to wonder if you should be rigging or leading a trip at all.
Martin Wright
Member
In response to Fishes' point, I would suggest that most people will use the guide to determine, before leaving home/club, the lengths of rope required for their chosen trip so that these can be selected and packed in good time. It is not a "Noddy's guide to rigging", but even an experienced caver may gain some useful information from reading the relevant chapter for their trip.
tdobson's story above about the unexpected changeover illustrates this perfectly.
tdobson's story above about the unexpected changeover illustrates this perfectly.
I do get the guides for more complex or extensive rigging but it seems OTT for a single pitch with no deviations or rebelays.
Anyone should really be prepared for a changover. Even if you have plenty of rope then its not so uncommon to have to deal with something like hair or clothing getting caught in a descender or having to deal with a damaged rope. One of my friends even managed to get his beard caught in his descender.
I tend to prefer exploratory caving and mine exploration and spend most of my time in places with no survey unless we are making it and most people have never heard of. In reality though this often involves a lot of squirming around in mud while trying to juggle with boulders that don't want to stay where you want them.
Anyone should really be prepared for a changover. Even if you have plenty of rope then its not so uncommon to have to deal with something like hair or clothing getting caught in a descender or having to deal with a damaged rope. One of my friends even managed to get his beard caught in his descender.
I tend to prefer exploratory caving and mine exploration and spend most of my time in places with no survey unless we are making it and most people have never heard of. In reality though this often involves a lot of squirming around in mud while trying to juggle with boulders that don't want to stay where you want them.
wellyjen
Well-known member
I get your point. A topo for a single pitch drop isn't, or shouldn't be necessary. It is done mostly for stylistic consistency with the rest of the guide and its more complex pitches. Going back to check stuff is very useful. The old description for Lay-by Pot that was replaced for example, still said belay off a fallen tree. That tree has long gone. I recall it not being there the last time I visited, about six months before COVID kicked off. The guide is there for all cavers, novice, or otherwise and knowing what to expect means you can take the right kit and not be loaded down with loads of extra rope and clanky bits, just in case, or worse, not have enough stuff.
There are a couple of topos in the works that should satisfy wishes for more complex rigging, with multiple pitches, rebelays, deviations and all that fun stuff. When they might get published depends on several factors, some of which aren't in my control.
Jen
There are a couple of topos in the works that should satisfy wishes for more complex rigging, with multiple pitches, rebelays, deviations and all that fun stuff. When they might get published depends on several factors, some of which aren't in my control.
Jen
wellyjen
Well-known member
The guide has said that the part 2 topo for Snake Mine will follow soon for almost a year now. We finally got back down there last weekend and checked it against reality, so it has now been published after a few modifications. Thanks again to Dan Lay for doing the bolting and drawing the original sketches on which these topos are based. There is a link to a set of PDMHS articles from 1968 that gives a very comprehensive write up, plus a survey, which is worth reading before a visit. The mine makes a good day out.
In much of this mine the roof and shaft walls are made from stacked deads, founded on stone stemples and arches. They were very neatly and well made, but the youngest will now have been there for a century. The SRT routes avoid them as much as possible, but the consequences of a collapse 'cause you were clumsy are pretty obvious. For a Peak District lead mine it appears to be in reasonably good condition though. Stone is more durable than wood.
Jen
https://www.ccpc.org.uk/rigging.html#snake
In much of this mine the roof and shaft walls are made from stacked deads, founded on stone stemples and arches. They were very neatly and well made, but the youngest will now have been there for a century. The SRT routes avoid them as much as possible, but the consequences of a collapse 'cause you were clumsy are pretty obvious. For a Peak District lead mine it appears to be in reasonably good condition though. Stone is more durable than wood.
Jen
https://www.ccpc.org.uk/rigging.html#snake
wellyjen
Well-known member
Following the news that Odin Mine is accessible again, I have temporarily removed the topo from the rigging guide and put in a placeholder page. Our topo was very definitely "before" and it sounds like the rigging "after" is rather different. Until we can get some Crewe members down there to take a look, make some sketches and measure some ropes, you should use the DCA's information.
Thank you all the DCA people who have worked so hard over the last decade to get this site accessible by cavers again. Once again, we can visit the wondrous jewel of the Peak District underworld.
Jen
The rigging guide version is now 13.6.
Thank you all the DCA people who have worked so hard over the last decade to get this site accessible by cavers again. Once again, we can visit the wondrous jewel of the Peak District underworld.
Jen
The rigging guide version is now 13.6.
wellyjen
Well-known member
CCPC members were in Odin Mine on Saturday and Sunday. This was after the weather forecast made the planned Providence Pot to Dow Cave traverse look not so sensible. One of the results of this, aside from some cavers and their gear getting very muddy, are new Odin Mine topos for the rigging guide. Trying to fit all the new anchors on to one page as before ended up looking very cluttered, so it has been split across two pages. The new version number for the guide is 13.7.
https://www.ccpc.org.uk/rigging.html#odin
Jen
https://www.ccpc.org.uk/rigging.html#odin
Jen
pwhole
Well-known member
One thing that's not entirely obvious (until you get there) is that the deviation on the pitch into the Bell Chamber needs to be very short - no more than about 15cm, due to the hade of the shaft, so a tiny sling or maybe just two or three krabs instead is sufficient. Obviously a rebelay would resolve the problem if the rope was long enough and you could be bothered.
wellyjen
Well-known member
A minor update. For some of the Peak/Speedwell system topos there were links to the DCA (ex Hitch 'n' Hike) microguides. A link on the web page and a QR code on the topo. DCA have been revamping the peakdistrictcaving.info web site and the links are broken. It doesn't seem possible to link to the pdf's directly any more. The links on the rigging guide page and the QR codes on the topos have been removed. The microguides are still available via the peakdistrictcaving.info link and the web page tells you which microguide is appropriate for the respective topo. The new guide version is 13.8.
The affected topos are for Far Sump Extensions, George Cooper's Aven, Victoria Aven and the White River Series.
The affected topos are for Far Sump Extensions, George Cooper's Aven, Victoria Aven and the White River Series.
wellyjen
Well-known member
Latest updates to the guide, version 13.9:
The P8 topo now has more detailed drawings of the area around Idiot's Leap to help navigation and updated rigging of the high level routes there. There is some confusion as to which of the two high level SRT routes is the one actually called Boney Pitch, so for now the name has been removed. The rigging for the Iron Ladder pitch has been corrected. We had the two anchors used to descend the pitch being part of the high level traverse, when in fact they are a couple of metres lower down and on the opposite wall. The DCA topo has the same thing. There is some confusion over the name of Stalagmite Passage. In surveys it is called Stalagmite Passage, but in lots of guide books over the years it is called Stalactite Passage, even if it is called Stalagmite in a survey in the same book. The same mismatch seems to have been copied from one guide book to the next over the decades. We are trying to trace the name back to the earliest exploration, with help from various people. For now, it stays as Stalagmite. My suggestion has been to compromise and rename it Stagatite Passage!
Snelsow Swallet now includes the rigging for the lower pitch. This is on stainless expansion anchors. Not official DCA anchors, but well placed. The DCA are still working on the anchors and lid for the top entrance, so for now, this part of the cave has been removed from the topo, but there is space for it to go, when the route is open for business.
At Eldon Hole, the South Gully route topo has been modified to make rigging and using the route a little easier. There are two anchors about a metre apart on the East Wall, where the gully goes vertical, the second of which was shared with the East Wall route. Getting to the second anchor from the first was awkward and adds nothing to the safety of the route, so the rebelay on the topo now goes from the first anchor. Provided the deviation on the West Wall is used, then all should be well.
Corrected the introduction. The date of our first publised rigging guide was 1994.
Jen
The P8 topo now has more detailed drawings of the area around Idiot's Leap to help navigation and updated rigging of the high level routes there. There is some confusion as to which of the two high level SRT routes is the one actually called Boney Pitch, so for now the name has been removed. The rigging for the Iron Ladder pitch has been corrected. We had the two anchors used to descend the pitch being part of the high level traverse, when in fact they are a couple of metres lower down and on the opposite wall. The DCA topo has the same thing. There is some confusion over the name of Stalagmite Passage. In surveys it is called Stalagmite Passage, but in lots of guide books over the years it is called Stalactite Passage, even if it is called Stalagmite in a survey in the same book. The same mismatch seems to have been copied from one guide book to the next over the decades. We are trying to trace the name back to the earliest exploration, with help from various people. For now, it stays as Stalagmite. My suggestion has been to compromise and rename it Stagatite Passage!
Snelsow Swallet now includes the rigging for the lower pitch. This is on stainless expansion anchors. Not official DCA anchors, but well placed. The DCA are still working on the anchors and lid for the top entrance, so for now, this part of the cave has been removed from the topo, but there is space for it to go, when the route is open for business.
At Eldon Hole, the South Gully route topo has been modified to make rigging and using the route a little easier. There are two anchors about a metre apart on the East Wall, where the gully goes vertical, the second of which was shared with the East Wall route. Getting to the second anchor from the first was awkward and adds nothing to the safety of the route, so the rebelay on the topo now goes from the first anchor. Provided the deviation on the West Wall is used, then all should be well.
Corrected the introduction. The date of our first publised rigging guide was 1994.
Jen
pwhole
Well-known member
wellyjen said:
That's excellent news as I rigged that pitch a few weeks ago and had no idea that second anchor was there until I got to the bottom and Wayne mentioned it. As you point out, we didn't need it. In fact it was the day we met you at the top. A few more anchors on all those single-anchor 20m+ pitches wouldn't go amiss though, especially on the North route, where there are two in sequence with 40m of fresh air inbetween. How long have they been in there?
Pete K
Well-known member
Nige Atkins bolted pitches in P8 and I asked him about the names a while ago.
The one that lands from the high level at the base of Idiot's Leap is the Boney Pitch. The one that lands on the sharp corner further down the streamway after the climb over the boulder is the Far Flats Pitch. There are other pitches on Spits with names but I forget those.
The one that lands from the high level at the base of Idiot's Leap is the Boney Pitch. The one that lands on the sharp corner further down the streamway after the climb over the boulder is the Far Flats Pitch. There are other pitches on Spits with names but I forget those.
wellyjen
Well-known member
pwhole said:wellyjen said:
That's excellent news as I rigged that pitch a few weeks ago and had no idea that second anchor was there until I got to the bottom and Wayne mentioned it. As you point out, we didn't need it. In fact it was the day we met you at the top. A few more anchors on all those single-anchor 20m+ pitches wouldn't go amiss though, especially on the North route, where there are two in sequence with 40m of fresh air inbetween. How long have they been in there?
The earliest rigging guide I have is around 2005 and it hadn't changed since then. My understanding is that double anchors are more important when you have a short distance to the next anchor above. If a single anchor pops with a short distance to the next anchor, then the fall factor with the loop of rope is much much higher than with a long distance between anchors. However, if a single anchor after a long drop would lead to the rope going over a sharp edge, or loose rock, or in to a waterfall if it failed, then it is worth doubling them up. Can't remember what the North Gully route is like in that respect.
Pete K said:
Thanks Pete,
That was the the consensus of those in the club, but we were not 100% sure. I didn't know that Nigel had done the bolting originally. It seems that the Far Flats pitch was never named in the topo and over time and redraws the Boney Pitch name drifted across from where it should be to where Far Flats Pitch is. The names will probably go back in for the next revision.
wellyjen
Well-known member
The rigging guide has been updated. The new version is 14.0.
In the P8 topo, the names of the pitches above Idiot's Leap have been added/reinstated after Pete Knight confirmed the names above. The name of Stalagtite (sic) Passage has been changed to the earliest known published spelling from a survey in BSA Bulletin 62, 1967, which is only three years after the cave was discovered. Thanks to Clive Westlake for digging through the Wessex Club library archives to find this. I can now see how it got confused, with various guide book texts calling it Stalactite Passage and subsequent surveys naming it Stalagmite Passage. The contradictory names being copied from book to book and survey to survey down the years. It seems my joke in reply 52 of compromising and calling it Stagatite Passage wasn't so far off the mark!
The Giant's Hole topos have been condensed from three pages to two. The first covers the main route from Garlands Pot to the East Canal. The second covers other pitches in the system. The pull through from the Upper Passage to the Crabwalk has been added.
A new Safety section replaces the Warnings and Disclaimers and Resin Fixed Anchor Safety paragraphs after the Introduction.
The guide pages have been renumbered to take in to account the added and removed pages over the last few months. You may need to refresh the page, or clear your browser cache to make sure you see the new versions of topos. If you have a printed guide, then the best thing is probably reprint it. A tree will need to die I'm afraid.
Jen
In the P8 topo, the names of the pitches above Idiot's Leap have been added/reinstated after Pete Knight confirmed the names above. The name of Stalagtite (sic) Passage has been changed to the earliest known published spelling from a survey in BSA Bulletin 62, 1967, which is only three years after the cave was discovered. Thanks to Clive Westlake for digging through the Wessex Club library archives to find this. I can now see how it got confused, with various guide book texts calling it Stalactite Passage and subsequent surveys naming it Stalagmite Passage. The contradictory names being copied from book to book and survey to survey down the years. It seems my joke in reply 52 of compromising and calling it Stagatite Passage wasn't so far off the mark!
The Giant's Hole topos have been condensed from three pages to two. The first covers the main route from Garlands Pot to the East Canal. The second covers other pitches in the system. The pull through from the Upper Passage to the Crabwalk has been added.
A new Safety section replaces the Warnings and Disclaimers and Resin Fixed Anchor Safety paragraphs after the Introduction.
The guide pages have been renumbered to take in to account the added and removed pages over the last few months. You may need to refresh the page, or clear your browser cache to make sure you see the new versions of topos. If you have a printed guide, then the best thing is probably reprint it. A tree will need to die I'm afraid.
Jen
wellyjen
Well-known member
No. That is the only one we have been able to find. The same journal doesn't mention the passage by name. However it is the earliest yet and there is no consistency in anything published later. Do you know of any earlier journals, or log books still accessible that could shed more light? I could just as easily remove the name from the topo, as it isn't of much importance for the rigging.mikem said:
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