Permission from landowner for filming/photos in cave

cap n chris

Well-known member
NewStuff said:
I would suggest that not expecting pictures to be taken is a very unique situation if it's not stated beforehand

Agree. However, it's happened before that a request has been made prior to a trip for photographs not to be taken but other people in the group have done so, not being party to the request, and who have subsequently put them online. It's not unreasonable to ask for them to be removed even though the person taking them was unaware of the original proviso.
 

NewStuff

New member
Cap'n Chris said:
NewStuff said:
I would suggest that not expecting pictures to be taken is a very unique situation if it's not stated beforehand

Agree. However, it's happened before that a request has been made prior to a trip for photographs not to be taken but other people in the group have done so, not being party to the request, and who have subsequently put them online. It's not unreasonable to ask for them to be removed even though the person taking them was unaware of the original proviso.

And if that's the situation, then fair enough. But assuming that Alex obtained permission directly from the landowner (quite likely in my experience with access, landowners,permission, etc), and no such stipulations were made then the ball is in Alex's court, however much he may wish it wasn't.
 

Clive G

Member
Badlad said:
You say you have been asked "indirectly" by the landowner to remove all your media for this particular cave.  This appears to be quite an unusual request if not unprecedented in the area.

My advice would be to arrange to meet the landowner in person and listen directly to his request.  Discuss this openly with him and find out the reasons behind his request.  If they seem reasonable then do as he asks, or make up your own mind based on first hand knowledge at least.

You had permission to be in the cave in the first place.  You acted reasonably in taking the photos/videos and placed them on social media or whatever, as anyone else would.  You're not commercial or fallen foul of any rules.  Speak direct and make sure you are getting the full story and decide accordingly.

If it is in the Dales you could try the access officer of the CNCC for advice. PM me if you like.

Every situation is different and has to be taken on its own merits.

Years ago, when I was 19 years old, I asked the management for permission to film (Super 8 film) on the Palace Pier in Brighton and had the full TV/Commercials/Feature Film rate thrown at me. Gulp! So I haggled and managed to have the charge reduced until it was a manageable amount, if anything.

In another situation, many years later, I wanted to film inside Wookey Hole Cave (by the Witch, in Chamber 3 and outside the resurgence) for my film on the history of diving and had no problem at all when the cameraman and subject made the approach to the management: Rob Parker and Rob Palmer.

Within reason, we were allowed to film as we wished, scooping the tripod and two cameras out of the way as every new batch of tourists made its appearance inside the cave, at what seemed like five-minute intervals. We also had lights, with cables attached, mounted on tripods, to keep away from stray feet as well!

So, the filming proved episodic to say the least, but we got what we needed and, to this day, Wookey Hole Caves has a free advertisement every time someone watches the end of part 2 and/or the end credits of both parts of the video-film!

On another occasion an archaeologist working for the Tower of London wanted to film a piece to camera with me in the moat beneath the curtain walls - involving him, myself and a Hi-8 video camera on a tripod, on a wide expanse of grass, away from the general public. It was to demonstrate and explain some recent archaeological finds from the moat, with which he was involved.

However, the Tower of London 'PR' department miserably refused permission (on insurance grounds, I believe). This was after I had time-lapse filmed from Tower Bridge the River Thames going through a tide cycle on the foreshore in front of the Tower of London and made the edited sequence freely available to the Tower management for a public exhibition.

Later, the day manager of the associated Thames Archaeological Survey (1998-9) lazily refused to help put a schools' teaching film project together, with accompanying text, through which the film could have received an educational distribution to schools and associated sponsorship to help pay for the studio editing and any other unplanned costs.  Ultimately, I decided enough was enough and shelved 20 hours of footage and, to this day, the film has never been completed or seen as a direct result . . .

So, I think, prior research and discussions, where necessary, are always best for agreeing in advance how you will proceed with specific photographic and/or filming work. Otherwise, it might all end up having to be archived away, if you work on trust and later find out you're dealing with jokers!
 

bograt

Active member
Seems a shame to think of it all being lost Clive, why not get it digitised and put up on ufacetubebook (or whatever), see what they say to that !!----!!..
 

Clive G

Member
bograt said:
Seems a shame to think of it all being lost Clive, why not get it digitised and put up on ufacetubebook (or whatever), see what they say to that !!----!!..

I no longer have the camera that was used to do the filming, but have been wondering if there might be a Hi-8 compatible device out there, that I could buy via eBay or the likes, for playing the analogue video off the tapes (with high quality) and into a computer for editing?

Originally, I used S-video out from a studio playback machine (for time-base correction) to a component convertor and then fed the resulting YUC component signal into a Beta SP recorder. This gave pretty high quality results, provided you didn't run the original tapes too often and cause dropout. Unfortunately, the associated studio editing costs, pre home-computer-editing days, were quite expensive.

I have been thinking that with a modern PC the footage could now be edited relatively inexpensively - and even the music for the film had been recorded.

One final pick-up tape was stolen with the camera from my flat and I would dearly love for it to turn up again, since it had the end of a shot of a large white passenger liner passing through Tower Bridge, with the bridge closing again afterwards! I still have the first tape with the bridge opening and the vessel getting halfway through, shot from exactly the same viewpoint . . .
 

todcaver

New member
I've heard some silly bickering on here before now , like play school bit this just sounds so ridiculous it can't be true !
Also if it was true ,,,, somebody wrote " wear a path to HIS cave !  defiantly not HIS cave anymore than it is mine !  If he wants to be like that he might find life turns out to be a bitch
 

Roger W

Well-known member
If it's on his land, I rather think it will be his cave...

Even if it's on access land and even if it turns out that the big black bird does entitle you to go in further than the daylight can penetrate - it still won't be your cave, even though you have the right to go caving in it.

Of course, come the revolution when all private ownership of anything and everything is done away with, it won't be his cave any more.  But I rather suspect that it won't be your cave, either, in any meaningful way.  It will belong to the state - and there is no reason why the state should let you or anyone else have access.  Indeed, it could well be that the state would have better uses for your time and energy than going caving...
 

pwhole

Well-known member
There are plenty of opportunities to photograph caves and mines, so chopping one off the list isn't really the end of the world. Land ownership is a bitch if you don't, but it can also be a bitch if you do. We don't really have 'state land' in Britain, which is a shame, but then it's probably not big enough to be a practical option. Peak Parks are 'nearly' state land. But railing against the concept isn't going to change it, especially if the landowner reads this and sees themselves described as an idiot.
 

ah147

New member
I know filming/photography on public areas you don't need permission legally.

I'd speculate that means legally you have to ask permission for private areas.






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royfellows

Well-known member
Might be of interest:

http://www.photographers-resource.co.uk/photography/Legal/Access_Rights.htm

My take on it is that if you take photographs in a cave against the owners wishes and use hem for your own purposes only he would not get to hear of it, but if you publish them he would possibly be able to sue for damages. If he he sees you doing it against his wishes he can regard you as a trespasser and ask you to leave.

Legally, the owner of property has the right to impose conditions on access, to break those conditions put you in the position of a trespasser.

If no conditions have been imposed at all then I would regard the taking of photographs as being an implied permission, in any event the photographs taken are the intellectual property of the photographer. unless they form part of a contract with an employer such as a film company.
 

Simon Wilson

New member
Please don't talk about this any more.

Any talk about the legalities of anything to do with photos is completely irrelevant to this case. Access to this cave has been the subject of protracted and delicate negotiations and we are very lucky to have any access at all. We have to do exactly what the landowners want and be grateful for their permission. We also have to be grateful to the people who have given their time and efforts to get access and do nothing at all to undermine what they do.
 

royfellows

Well-known member
Apologies, I thought that this was a discussion in a general sense and that was the context of my posting.
 

Simon Wilson

New member
Sorry Roy. Talk generally about the legal matters around photos by all means. But be aware that access to this cave has been very difficult to get and the owner must be treated with the utmost respect and then some. I wish I could say more but I can't.
 

Spike

New member
Simon Wilson said:
...the owner must be treated with the utmost respect and then some. I wish I could say more but I can't.

Simon Wilson said:
Bottlebank said that some landowners might get upset; when he was asked to name any landowners he could not do. Pitlamp said that damage had already been done to landowner relations; when he was asked to name a landowner he could not do. Now you have done almost the same thing. There is a pattern - weasel words.

Oh, the irony...
 

Simon Wilson

New member
Spike said:
Simon Wilson said:
...the owner must be treated with the utmost respect and then some. I wish I could say more but I can't.

Simon Wilson said:
Bottlebank said that some landowners might get upset; when he was asked to name any landowners he could not do. Pitlamp said that damage had already been done to landowner relations; when he was asked to name a landowner he could not do. Now you have done almost the same thing. There is a pattern - weasel words.

Oh, the irony...

Dirty tricks again. You are deliberately conflating two different issues. The issue of access to caves on private land which is not Access Land is a completely different matter to Access Land.

Every landowner is different. There are a few landowners who have caves on both Access Land and non-Access Land. We know who they are and we talk to them as much as that is possible or beneficial.

If any caver knew of any concern that a landowner had, I think they would have a moral duty as a caver to pass that information on to people who would want to address the concern. Instead, what some have done is pretend there is some concern for political reasons but refuse to say who the landowner is.
 

Peter Burgess

New member
Not POLITICAL reasons - reasons of respect, which you seem to appreciate - certainly in respect of the cave in question. If you can respect one cave owner, then why can't I respect another? Double standards.
 
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