Petzl Croll S issue

[cap n chris]

The Handy rules the roost as a braking krab. Even on 8mm in Titan

The Handy was designed specifically to solve a problem experienced by people who weren't using the vertaco layout, back in the days of self drilling spits on rebelays. In an era of resin the Handy is largely an ego accoutrement.

 

[Babyhagrid]

The frieno is very nice. Especially for heavier cavers

 

[paul]

The Handy was designed specifically to solve a problem experienced by people who weren't using the vertaco layout, back in the days of self drilling spits on rebelays. In an era of resin the Handy is largely an ego accoutrement.

Totally disagree. I use a Petzl Simple and I've used the Vertaco method in tight pitches but have used my Handy for many years (since 2008) and would not go back to a braking karabiner. There is FAR more control on the amount of friction available with the Handy in my experience.

 

[andrewmcleod]

I like my Freino Z...

I've only got a few mm of wear on the spur part so it's got plenty of life in it before it snaps off yet

 

[Pete K]

Use whatever kit and setup that works for you. Believing that there is only one pure way of doing things for everyone, with one particular set of kit, is ridiculous. They are driving a different set of muscles and bones controlled by a different computer, why would what works for you automatically work for them? I have 4 harnesses that can be used for SRT, 2 caving ones, 1 rope access and 1 hybrid rope access/caving. All have slightly different setups and brands of kit, all work fine for me. I teach, work and cave with people that use a whole spectrum of caving equipment different to mine, and that doesn't bother me at all because it is what they find works best for them. Being exposed to the differences made me a better teacher, and means I can put my hands on almost anything available and use it, and more importantly, help people get better at using their equipment even if I don't use one on my kit. Stick to your preferred setup by all means, but belittling other people because of the gear or setup they use is arrogant in the extreme. I'll continue to use my 2019 Stop, Croll S, Freino, Handy, and "cord of shame" thank you very much.

As for the OPs reply - if you cleaned the Croll and sorted the issue, do you need to replace it? Caving kit gets jammed up and gunky from time to time, it's the nature of what we do. Any ascender is potentially going to experience the same issue if you're unlucky. The Turbochests are fine, I have one on a harness, but I didn't notice any improvement over the Petzl or CT chest ascenders personally.

 

[JoshW]

Use whatever kit and setup that works for you. Believing that there is only one pure way of doing things for everyone, with one particular set of kit, is ridiculous. They are driving a different set of muscles and bones controlled by a different computer, why would what works for you automatically work for them? I have 4 harnesses that can be used for SRT, 2 caving ones, 1 rope access and 1 hybrid rope access/caving. All have slightly different setups and brands of kit, all work fine for me. I teach, work and cave with people that use a whole spectrum of caving equipment different to mine, and that doesn't bother me at all because it is what they find works best for them. Being exposed to the differences made me a better teacher, and means I can put my hands on almost anything available and use it, and more importantly, help people get better at using their equipment even if I don't use one on my kit. Stick to your preferred setup by all means, but belittling other people because of the gear or setup they use is arrogant in the extreme. I'll continue to use my 2019 Stop, Croll S, Freino, Handy, and "cord of shame" thank you very much.

As for the OPs reply - if you cleaned the Croll and sorted the issue, do you need to replace it? Caving kit gets jammed up and gunky from time to time, it's the nature of what we do. Any ascender is potentially going to experience the same issue if you're unlucky. The Turbochests are fine, I have one on a harness, but I didn't notice any improvement over the Petzl or CT chest ascenders personally.

Get off the forum now with your reasoned and level headed points. There’s no room for that on this forum!

 

[Fjell]

The Handy was designed specifically to solve a problem experienced by people who weren't using the vertaco layout, back in the days of self drilling spits on rebelays. In an era of resin the Handy is largely an ego accoutrement.

Who uses resin on proper caving trips? What are you going to do, wait for it to set?

Resin is used for popular training routes in shallow caves like in the Dales. If I had a 1000m+ of dirty rope to go down I won’t be running it through the krab I am hanging on for sure. That is what the Handy was designed for, and it works.

 

[JoshW]

I've used the Vertaco method in tight pitches.

Excuse my ignorance but what is the vertaco method? 🤔

 

[Babyhagrid]

Excuse my ignorance but what is the vertaco method? 🤔

 

[JoshW]

View attachment 18132

Interesting. I see literally zero benefit to this over a handy/separate breaking crab and at least one pretty major downside..

If anyone can enlighten me to any positives I’m missing I’d be interested!

 

[cap n chris]

Love this forum! Never ceases to be enlightening! I'll stick with using what works for me then 🙂 , and it's not my Handy, nor my Simple, nor my Frieno(s) nor a CoS, nor the vertaco method etc., but instructing obviously covers lots of stuff. Fjells real life scenario wins the day though.

 

[Fjell]

Interesting. I see literally zero benefit to this over a handy/separate breaking crab and at least one pretty major downside..

If anyone can enlighten me to any positives I’m missing I’d be interested!

There aren’t any for caving. It’s used in canyoning on clean washed ropes on moderate pitches with no rebelays. I in fact have done so and have one of those wiggly 8’s you can vary the friction on. The point being you might use it doubled sometimes and you don’t really want a braking krab to speed up releasing it whilst swimming. In my opinion the Freino is a canyoning device for use with an 8 (or at least I could see it working in a reasonable manner). Here is Petzl’s ultimate destination to make it clearer:

 

[paul]

Excuse my ignorance but what is the vertaco method? 🤔

If you have access to "Alpine Caving Techniques" by Gerorges Marbach and Bernard Tourte, there's a diagram and explanation of the "Vertaco" braking technique on page 144.
It recommends that when abseiling in narrow shafts, etc. attaching the descender to the short cowstail so that the descender is at face level which prevents it jamming against your chest as it would do when attached to the harness in the usual way.
In order to provide some braking, you route the rope through the karabiner attached to the descender rather than through a separate karabiner or Handy, etc in the usual way and apply braking by pulling on the rope in an upwards direction, i.e., "Vertaco".

 

[JAshley73]

I really enjoy where this thread has gone. As a new caver I'm eager to read everyone's experience regarding gear and methods, especially regarding SRT. (Being that I'm from the USA, naturally the UK-centric location-specific topics aren't of great interest to me at this point...)

Love this forum! Never ceases to be enlightening! I'll stick with using what works for me then 🙂 , and it's not my Handy, nor my Simple, nor my Frieno(s) nor a CoS, nor the vertaco method etc., but instructing obviously covers lots of stuff. Fjells real life scenario wins the day though.

@cap n chris I can tell by a lot of your posts that you have lots of experience caving, instructing, and so on. I can tell that you're pretty smart, and often get frustrated by others when they don't see eye-to-eye with you. (I know the type, I've been that guy before, probably still am to some extent.) A humble request from an eager, new vertical caver - that sort of sarcasm rarely helps. In fact, it often leaves me (and others I presume) wanting, and slightly frustrated as well. Anyway, I do appreciate you weighing in to discussions quite often.

 

[JAshley73]

There aren’t any for caving. It’s used in canyoning on clean washed ropes on moderate pitches with no rebelays. I in fact have done so and have one of those wiggly 8’s you can vary the friction on. The point being you might use it doubled sometimes and you don’t really want a braking krab to speed up releasing it whilst swimming. In my opinion the Freino is a canyoning device for use with an 8 (or at least I could see it working in a reasonable manner). Here is Petzl’s ultimate destination to make it clearer:

View attachment 18139

I'm assuming that the intent here - based on your post, and also the routing diagram printed on the device - is that for a quick escape, you open the attachment krab, and then "bail" on the device/rope/etc, in order to get away from a problem situation? Weather that's a waterfall, being trapped under a current, etc. etc... Do I understand that correctly?

Anyway, that looks like a neat rappelling device. Not sure that I'd want that as a primary caving descender, but for places where a figure-8 is appropriate, that looks like a nice alternative. (And others like it too - "improved" 8's, etc...)

 

[Fjell]

I'm assuming that the intent here - based on your post, and also the routing diagram printed on the device - is that for a quick escape, you open the attachment krab, and then "bail" on the device/rope/etc, in order to get away from a problem situation? Weather that's a waterfall, being trapped under a current, etc. etc... Do I understand that correctly?

Anyway, that looks like a neat rappelling device. Not sure that I'd want that as a primary caving descender, but for places where a figure-8 is appropriate, that looks like a nice alternative. (And others like it too - "improved" 8's, etc...)

It twists the rope somewhat so it’s useless for SRT. Yes, it is generally quicker to release the rope and it’s quite small. But you have to open the main krab to load it, not so hot in a cave. For me the main reason is you can use a doubled rope. The one in the picture can be easily soft locked by using the groove, which is why they seem to regard it as “advanced”. I have done plenty of canyon trips with a Stop or Bobbin, it’s not a big deal. But it does help if at least one person has an 8.

 

[mwitek]

I dont like vertaco, for me handy is good option but i also like small carabiner instead. Especially on dirty ropes where handy is "too good".

One complaint about handy - its wire mount.

 

[Fjell]

I dont like vertaco, for me handy is good option but i also like small carabiner instead. Especially on dirty ropes where handy is "too good".

One complaint about handy - its wire mount.

You turn it round to use the big end. You must have some very thick rope for this not to work as I very rarely have to.

 

[mwitek]

You turn it round to use the big end. You must have some very thick rope for this not to work as I very rarely have to.

Yes, You can do it if You use wired connection. I connect handy directly to bobbin carabiner and it is difficult to turn it So somerimes i use quickdraw carabiner instead

But still I think taht Handy is very good braking binner

 

[mwitek]

But still in autorescuing techniques we use bobbin in vertaco.