Pierre's Pot

[cap n chris]

IIRC the "off route" adventure caving trip available to experienced cavers in the showcave at Cueva de Nerja in Southern Spain requires an agreement to be signed which includes a promise not to urinate during the seven hour trip. I also vagely recall there being the possibility of wearing incontinence pants for those who were unsure of their ability to refrain from pissing.

I fully understand the concerns of landowners who rely on the water supply and in such instances it should be no problem to observe this requirement. My personal feeling is that taking a widdle in an active cave system with a good stream flow is going to be AOK on the grounds that by the time it's been diluted there's probably less of it being ingested by other people in error than there is if you touch a door handle before eating your sandwiches without washing your hands.

 

[graham]

Urinating and evacuating one's bowels is not the sole preserve of the human race.

There is a difference between crapping (or pissing) in a biologically highly active, high energy environment, such as a field and doing the same thing in a very low energy environment such as a fossil cave passage. In the former, your waste products will vanish really quite quickly (if they did not then all the cows would drown in their own poo) but in the fossil cave not only is the mechanism not present to "deal with" this influx of biology but its sudden appearance will "drown out" what is present in that ecosystem.

In short: DON'T DO IT.

 

[cap n chris]

Good point, Graham.

However, are we off thread somewhat or just pissing in the wind?

 

[graham]

Good point, Graham.

However, are we off thread somewhat or just pissing in the wind?

Oops, thought this was the Swildon's thread ...

 

[Peter Burgess]

In the former, your waste products will vanish really quite quickly (if they did not then all the cows would drown in their own poo)

But it doesn't all biodegrade immediately, Graham, does it? Or perhaps I shouldn't worry when I go caving in a stream-cave that stinks of cowsh? Or does all the cowsh come from slurry pits etc?

And do the cows in the field by Swildons entrance have an unwritten agreement with the farmer not to crap in the stream, and to urinate at least 30 metres from it?

And I hope you are not by implication suggesting that I am not bothered about people doing this in cave, because I also say NO.

 

[graham]

In the former, your waste products will vanish really quite quickly (if they did not then all the cows would drown in their own poo)

But it doesn't all biodegrade immediately, Graham, does it? Or perhaps I shouldn't worry when I go caving in a stream-cave that stinks of cowsh? Or does all the cowsh come from slurry pits etc?

And do the cows in the field by Swildons entrance have an unwritten agreement with the farmer not to crap in the stream, and to urinate at least 30 metres from it?

And I hope you are not by implication suggesting that I am not bothered about people doing this in cave, because I also say NO.

Pete, note that I explicitly stated fossil cave passage. streamways are something else again, because they are, generally, much higher energy environments and the waste doesn't hang around in the same way.

You should no more drink cave stream water than you would drink a surface stream running through a herd of sheep or cows. However, much of what might cause a problem there may be degraded or diluted by the time it has travelled some distance away from the source and would not present the same way.

 

[Roger W]

[quote="graham]
You should no more drink cave stream water than you would drink a surface stream running through a herd of sheep or cows. [/quote]

Hmm...

I remember when the guided tours in Peak Cavern went along past the 5 arches - I'm sure the guide used to suggest tasting the water in the stream down there at the end of the tour - "wonderfully fresh and pure" or something like that.

And around the same time you could pay your sixpence to go into somebody's back garden and drink a cup of water from the Russet Well resurgence.

I'm still sure that Peak Cavern water was the best water I've ever tasted.

Maybe the radon had something to do with it? :?

 

[Peter Burgess]

This is a serious question. Is there an easy way to neutralise the stink of urine in a cave?

Barons' Cave in Reigate, which we open up to the public during the summer months, has been broken into and some people used it as a toilet. One part stinks. We would like to make the cave 'nice' again before the next open day.

Do we let nature take its course or is there something we can spread around? There is no ready supply of water close by. The floor is stone steps and sand, so cannot be mopped.

 

[Brains]

Quick lime has been used in the past to neutralise / remove organic matter from cave passage before (Ivy Green Cave?). Once the smell and mess is degraded the lime can be swept up and removed. CAUTION use gloves and eye protection, possibly a face mask as well. A garden water spray may help.
This is drastic stuff and should not be used carelessly...

 

[Peter Burgess]

I expect most of the urine has soaked into the very porous floor. So I'm nor sure how effective a solid like quick lime would be in this respect. This site is also a Scheduled Ancient Monument, so allowing lime to soak into the steps and the floor might not be a good idea. A water-based solution might be more appropriate - one that won't harm the environment.

 

[emgee]

[quote="graham]
You should no more drink cave stream water than you would drink a surface stream running through a herd of sheep or cows.

Hmm...

I remember when the guided tours in Peak Cavern went along past the 5 arches - I'm sure the guide used to suggest tasting the water in the stream down there at the end of the tour - "wonderfully fresh and pure" or something like that.

And around the same time you could pay your sixpence to go into somebody's back garden and drink a cup of water from the Russet Well resurgence.

I'm still sure that Peak Cavern water was the best water I've ever tasted.

Maybe the radon had something to do with it? :?[/quote]

The showcave at Treak uses water from the cave as it's sole water supply so you can enjoy it in your tea. The guides offer the chance to taste it in the cave.

 

[graham]

[quote="graham]
You should no more drink cave stream water than you would drink a surface stream running through a herd of sheep or cows.

Hmm...

I remember when the guided tours in Peak Cavern went along past the 5 arches - I'm sure the guide used to suggest tasting the water in the stream down there at the end of the tour - "wonderfully fresh and pure" or something like that.

And around the same time you could pay your sixpence to go into somebody's back garden and drink a cup of water from the Russet Well resurgence.

I'm still sure that Peak Cavern water was the best water I've ever tasted.

Maybe the radon had something to do with it? :?

The showcave at Treak uses water from the cave as it's sole water supply so you can enjoy it in your tea. The guides offer the chance to taste it in the cave.[/quote]

Cave waters ain't that pure I'm afraid. groundwater that has been filtered through other rocks might well come out clean, sparkling and nice, but sinking streams that pass through caves don't undergo the same filtration processes. What goes in at the top can come out at the bottom. It'll be diluted, sure, but clean? Hmm.

 

[whitelackington]

If cave water ain't that pure, how come;
for centuries settlements have been located at resurrgences;
ie.
Ludwell, Banwell, Axbridge, Cheddar,wookey hole etc. etc. etc.

 

[cap n chris]

It may not be pure at resurgences but it's better than the crap that goes in at the swallets!

Given the advantages of living in a modern society, there's not much reason for drinking stream/cave water when it's free and safe in taps.

 

[whitelackington]

"Free" Chris, I don't think so, I just payed two hundred pounds plus for a years water :!:

 

[cap n chris]

Drink out of someone else's taps and it's free then!

 

[Hughie]

Drink out of someone else's taps and it's free then!

Can I run a pipe to your kitchen sink, Chris (water bill £4k pa)?????

 

[emgee]

Drink out of someone else's taps and it's free then!

Can I run a pipe to your kitchen sink, Chris (water bill £4k pa)?????

Which includes sewage disposal so you need another pipe.

 

[graham]

If cave water ain't that pure, how come;
for centuries settlements have been located at resurrgences;
ie.
Ludwell, Banwell, Axbridge, Cheddar,wookey hole etc. etc. etc.

Ludwell, Banwell and Axbridge are not fed to any significant degree by surface streams, but by percolation water, which has been filtered to a far greater extent than swallet water has. The Wookey Hole versus St. Cuthbert's Minnery court case demonstrates the serious problems regarding polluting swallet waters and as far as Cheddar is concerned, low-level lead poisoning was endemic there, as well. (Just look at the members of the Cheddar CC & You'll see what I mean. )

 

[whitelackington]

In times of near drought does the percentage of biological content emerging at a ressurgence increase?
So if you relied on a spring for your drinking water, would it become, near undrinkable in very low flow? :yucky:

Are we in near drought now :alien: